From Code to Community, Open Source Contributions Matter

Jonathan:
Welcome to another episode of Do the Woo. I’m your co-host, Jonathan Wold, and with me today is your other co-host, Tammie Lister. Tammie, how are you?

Tammie:
I’m good, thank you. How are you?

Jonathan:
I am well. And it sounds like it’s raining there more than you deserve.

Tammie:
It is. It is raining hard. It’s an autumnal evening. It’s dusk. It’s that gray rain, and the leaves are all… Actually, I love the color of the leaves in England. You get all these different colors. How about you?

Jonathan:
Well, that also means that it’s time for more tea and colder weather drinks, right?

Tammie:
It is. It’s definitely time for tea. It’s time for chai. I had my first chai of the season at the weekend, so it’s definitely that time of year.

Jonathan:
I had a cider that had cinnamon and caramel in it, which was quite… I hadn’t tried that before. I was like…

Tammie:
I said, this is the thing—your cider is non-alcoholic, isn’t it?

Jonathan:
They’re not. By default, you can get them with…

Tammie:
Alcohol…

Jonathan:
But by default, they’re just an apple cider. So, they had something new at WordCamp US this year, and they called it Showcase Day. For those who didn’t make it out this year, how would you describe what Showcase Day was about, Tammie, or what the intention was?

Tammie:
So, I’m not sure what the intention of the organizers was, but the intention that I got from it was to show everything awesome that was getting done in all the different ways with WordPress. How about you?

Jonathan:
I’ve been going to WordCamps for some time, and what I noticed about myself, because for me, if I’m going to a WordCamp, I’m going there primarily to connect with people, to have conversations, to catch up, and occasionally I’ll go to a talk that’s especially interesting to me, and if I want to show support to someone. In the case of Showcase Day, I found myself genuinely interested in, “Oh, I personally want to see that.” And it’s not that I don’t find the other talks interesting—they’re just generally not focused on my interests or whatever it might be. Whereas with Showcase Day, I found myself like, “Oh, this is interesting. Oh, this is interesting.” I was facing something I hadn’t faced in a long time, which is, “How do I choose?”

Tammie:
Yeah, that’s the thing. And one of the things that struck me is, back if I was pitching something from an agency’s perspective, always one of the questions would be, “So how do you do that? What are the examples of WordPress? How is this built?” Well, people were getting both to show that, but also people were getting to be able to see that as well. So, those demos… And it wasn’t just agency sites, it was also products getting to demonstrate as well. It was the full… I just really hope, and we’ll get into discussing it a little bit more, but I just really hope that more WordCamps—probably the flagships—will make it a normal practice. And it’s important to say it was a whole day, and it was proper. I think it was three tracks, is that correct?

Jonathan:
Yeah, there were three different tracks running. There’s a few things that I noticed were different about it, because the language is about the same as a typical talk, but at least in my experience watching the speakers, there was more freedom. It felt like they could talk about what they were doing, and it wasn’t a pitch. There’s just something… I think there’s just this extra level of apprehension… I don’t know what it is about just a typical talk where we’re like, “We’re so careful, we don’t want it to be commercial.” We’re trying to keep those lines clean.

And with Showcase Day, I didn’t pick up anything that felt commercial in its thrust, but something about just being able to talk freely about what you’ve done… I saw something different in the talks than what I’ve typically seen, and what it actually reminded me of, back in my agency days, I remember going to… We were part of the WordPress VIP Featured Partners Program, and they’d have these small events. Now, there would be lightning talks, and it was a little showcase, like a show-and-tell. “What have you worked on?” I remember some of our team did a lightning talk showing off something they built, and another team did that, showing off something they built, and that led to this, “Oh, wow, we should talk about this. There’s an opportunity to collaborate here,” that you just might not have seen otherwise if you hadn’t had a chance to show what you’d made.

Tammie:
Yeah, you were saying that one of the things it reminded me of was early meetups. The whole point of them—you’d have a meetup in your area, you’d go to the meetup, and people would show you what you could actually do with WordPress. That was it. We were like, “Oh, this cool thing, I can do this, or this thing with Kubrick, or this thing with whatever. I can do this because someone showed me how to do it.” Otherwise, how are you going to learn it? At the moment, it’s like I go on the site, I search it, or maybe find a blog post or whatever. It’s very… Or you stumble upon it or find it. The other thing that struck me about this—there was that grassroots kind of finding—but there was also just the sheer quality and the level, both from the people presenting and some incredible products. It really showed that there’s such a healthy ecosystem. Through to just some massive sites being produced and complexities as well. So, anyone who’s having an argument about, “You can’t do complexities with WordPress,” really, just go and see some of those examples.

Jonathan:
I found it inspiring, seeing, “Oh wow, this is what people are doing.” And there’s also something, I suspect, about knowing that you’re in a showcase—at least for some of them—where there was a buildup to it, trying to get as much done. So, we got to see polished, carefully prepared things that I found inspiring. At least in my observations of the conversations happening afterward, that carried through. People were talking to each other about what they’d showcased, and it was a great energy. I really enjoyed it.

Tammie:
I would be curious to know, because one of the criticisms—but kind of comments—as of late has been, “What is the worth of WordCamp for people?” And one of the things, particularly from the sponsor’s perspective, is difficult. But I’m really curious, and actually my hypothesis is that speaking at that, not only are you really contributing back by having a demonstration, but you are also helping your product and also helping your agency as well. So, I’m really curious to see that progressing from there, and the conversations that have happened… Going back to what you said before about people not being boastful or not… I’ve done those talks before where I feel that I’ve got to be so careful about what I say, and then I’m overly careful about what I say. When you are just talking about a case study or something, or you are just talking about that thing…

Jonathan:
There’s a freedom there, yeah.

Tammie:
And also, when you’re watching to not do something, you generally over not do something, and you miss even showing the great thing—the whole point of doing that. If you are doing a site about Disney, say it’s Disney, or if you are doing a product about AI, say it’s about AI. All those kinds of things—you’ll miss the point because you’re trying to be so gentle, or you’re trying not to say it’s a paid product, or those kinds of things. But because it was a Showcase Day, it was like, “No, everything here is a demonstration, or it’s showcasing everything.” So, everyone was there, and it didn’t feel separate. It didn’t feel so separate that no one was turning up to it…

Jonathan:
Either. They were pretty packed, at least some of the ones I went to.

Tammie:
Yeah, yeah. I actually felt that it was more packed than I’ve seen some of the Contribution Days as well. The Contribution Day was less, and then some of the talks seemed less, so it seemed like the day that people really, really wanted to be at.

Jonathan:
Yeah. So, Contribution Day—you were involved this year, and for those who haven’t been to a Contributor Day before, what was this year like?

Tammie:
Yeah, so flagship Contributor Days are very different from smaller WordCamp Contributor Days. At a flagship event, it’s like a “choose your own adventure.” You get to see every single team, and some teams you didn’t even know were going to be there, and you can move around and contribute to them. That’s the “too long, didn’t read.”

Jonathan:
I really like Contributor Day. I find that I get easily distracted by what feels like

a big reunion, seeing people that I haven’t seen in a while—it’s so good to see you!

Tammie:
That’s part of it.

Jonathan:
So, I find myself going from table to table, and one WordCamp to the next will vary. Sometimes I’ll be a lot more productive than others, but for me, there’s just something energizing about reconnecting with people that you haven’t seen in some time, and I really enjoyed it.

Tammie:
So, there’s always a thing as a core committer that you have to commit code at a Contribution Day—that’s part of what you’re there for. So that’s one of the tasks I have. But also, I think that’s part of it—what you’re saying is the connections. We are all incredibly good at remote work, and some people will never get to go to Contribution Day—that’s also worth recognizing. But their contributions are just as important. For every person that’s there, there are 20 people that are never going to be at a Contribution Day. That’s something to kind of recognize. But when you are there, taking advantage of those little breakout conversations, the breakout topics, and then reporting them back to the people who aren’t in the room, that’s also the really important thing of Contribution Days as well.

Jonathan:
That’s an important part of doing async well—ensuring that the people who aren’t there at the moment can…

Tammie:
Participate.

Jonathan:
And I think that’s something that, for the most part, we actually do quite well in the space. There’s a lot of the “seeing a meeting happening” and Slack being updated at the same time, and notes being put in place.

Tammie:
We even had—there was a casual little core group, and then Jonathan took notes and posted them. Did not expect that! But those kinds of… It’s a habit, it’s a behavior. The moment a certain number of people talk about a topic, document it. That kind of pace is really, really important. You don’t know who’s going to be solving the problem, and they’re probably not in the room—the one who’s going to be able to solve that problem.

Jonathan:
So, you and I have had the experience of also working with quite a few folks who are new to contribution, and being able to meet with them before WordCamp, be a help to them during it, and talk about it afterward. And Showcase Day, for me in particular—and you referenced this just a bit earlier—it is a form of contribution. When I go into it, I’m looking and seeing what people have had the energy and effort—a lot of which is extra effort—they really want to bring their best. People were also sharing things like, “Hey, here’s the code, here’s what I worked on,” and it’s interesting. How do you, Tammie, think about what I’ll describe as the ripple effects of those types of contributions?

Tammie:
Yeah, it’s interesting you say ripple effects. I think one of the things, a smaller thing maybe from Showcase Day and different things like that, is people are both pushing things and also… how many bugs were reported or how many bugs were documented because someone was getting ready for their presentation and they found a bug in core? It’s a small thing, but that’s kind of cool. Or how many people are like, “Well, now I can experiment with something.” And there were core things—and I don’t just mean the core team, but core product things—which were demonstrated as well, which I also think is incredibly important because you can say, “Hey, this new thing over here,” but it’s like, “Great, what do you do with this thing that you are just using in words?”

Until you demonstrate it and sit down, that’s part of it. It’s really, really important to just give people space with things. But contribution is a two-way street, and it’s really about what you want to get out of contribution as much as what you are going to give with contribution. I do think there’s that, and you mentioned Contribution Days. I don’t think Contribution Days are useful for everybody. When you were going in, you were saying it’s overwhelming. It’s overwhelming for some people, so their contribution may be in other areas—it may be async, it may be in different ways. And that’s one of the good possibilities we have—all these different ways that you can contribute and join in.

Jonathan:
So, this is something I’ve been wrestling with for some time because people contribute for any number of different reasons, and how you choose to contribute can be a very personal thing, I guess. How do we think about what counts as contribution in this space? This is a question that will come up a lot, right? Because there are people who… Committing code is an obvious contribution—that’s measurable. We also know that there’s a lot more to it than that, and I think what at least I’ve found—and I’m curious what you think—is that this can be pretty daunting for folks who are new to this space. They say, “Hey, I want to contribute.” And the question is, “Well, what can I do to help?” Especially because for many people, committing code—getting to that—is both daunting at best and not practical or realistic. That can lead people, at least in my experience, to feeling like they don’t have much to offer. How do you think about that?

Tammie:
So, I think going back to my point of the two-way street, it’s really what do you have to give to contribution and what does contribution have to give to you? It’s kind of an interesting way to think about it. If you are completely time-poor—because I’m going to maybe give some examples. You are just doing your startup, you’re completely time-poor, but your startup is based on WordPress. You do want to give back to the project, you do have some funds to do it. You probably want to do sponsored contribution. You want to sponsor someone—that’s what you want to do. That is a form of contribution, but that’s what you are doing. You are gaining from the project to build it, but you’re also giving back to the project. That’s one of the ways that I see it. It’s a little bit like keeping the lights on with it, but also…

Jonathan:
As in your lights need to be on first, or what do you mean?

Tammie:
Yeah, the lights—you want to keep the lights on in the building that you want to work in, right?

Jonathan:
Yes, I see what you’re saying. Yes, we need to make sure that this thing that we’re relying on and building continues to have its own lights on.

Tammie:
Yeah, but that doesn’t mean that you need to turn up and do whatever if you do not have the time. If you just have a newborn baby and you do not know how to code, or you do not know this… But also, you may have other ways that you can contribute. Maybe by pushing the boundaries of WordPress and then bringing that demonstration and doing lots of bug reports—that could be a contribution. There is no easy answer in any of this, and I think one of the easy answers is generally, “Here are the badges, here are the teams.” I don’t think that’s necessarily so easy for people because that then leads them to their own journey, and their own journey may be one of the ways, but one of the ways may be to sponsor people because they may not be time-rich. They may not have time to do that. They may be building up their own business.

We can talk a lot about products, and if you’re doing your own products, to then take time out when you’re already learning, you’re already balancing your account books… I mean, we’ve taken a bit of an angle, but that’s kind of the product owner’s problem. You do not necessarily have any time to then put back into contribution of what you may be gaining as well. And that’s something to think about—how do you do it? But also, the people that you’re working with or the things that you’re building may be worth incredible amounts to the project. So, maybe donating those and sponsoring those back, bringing those back to the project, is really important as well. Maybe there’s a way that you’ve figured something out that’s super performant that you could do as a patch, or maybe there’s a plugin that you could donate back. All those kinds of ways… There are so many.

I wanted to just say a little bit about what you mentioned about code—it’s really hard for us when we start talking about one contribution not being worth more than another contribution, or when one area… In all the years, and it’s since both of us have been in this project for so many years, sometimes we’ve had more contributions in code, sometimes we’ve had no contributions in design, and I’d be like, “Hey, anyone want to do design?” Maybe sometimes we’ve had no contributions in community, and anytime we shout about contributions in an area, everyone runs to that area. It’s a bit like a ship, right? Everyone runs to the area of the ship, and then that end of the ship tips a bit because everyone… That’s not how to do it. What we want is a balanced project with balanced contributions—not fires, but you tending the most. If you think of a beautiful garden that we’re trying to grow, you want to seasonally grow that garden in the way that you want it to grow. Full of metaphors… Maybe it’s the season, but…

Jonathan:
I have an idea that’s been percolating for some time. So, I’m grateful for everyone who contributes from a place of altruism—I think that’s great. I don’t think that’s necessary. And I think a good example of this, at least in my mind, is the work that Google has been investing into the project over the past couple of years. They have the Core Performance Team. There are a number of full-time contributors, and when they first came into the space, there was skepticism that people were expressing, like, “Hey, why is Google going to get involved in the project?” I know the contributors personally—they’re fantastic people who have been in the project. They have a lot of context for it. With Google, though, to me, it’s actually quite simple. They have an aligned interest in WordPress being successful because they want an open web that can be indexed. They also have ad products that rely on there being a web that’s not just closed and proprietary and locked down.

So, it’s easy to see their aligned interest. And to me, that doesn’t minimize just the sheer objective value of it. When we’re talking with people who are looking at the space, though, I suspect that if we shifted… It’s not that there’s an explicit… Let me put it this way: I think sometimes there’s the subtext that altruism is what’s needed. And when I look at it, because of this idea of open source and shared ownership, I think people also recognize—and perhaps just need to be encouraged on how to apply it practically—that when I contribute to the project, I’m actually making it better for myself as well. And that’s something that I’d love to hear your thoughts on more. My thinking is that if the narrative could be shifted to more of finding the aligned interest, then it might be easier. And I see some companies like Google who figured that out themselves, and they’re now having a meaningful, positive impact on the project in a way that’s not—at least from my perspective—rooted in altruism. What do you think?

Tammie:
I think if a company is hiring people that are doing good work—and Google is a good example, as you’re sharing, who are doing work and it is also benefiting Google—it’s part of it. The altruistic… You can feel you are altruistic, but who is gaining from you? And I think that’s also kind of always the interesting thing to think about. It’s really hard. I’ve been in open source before I was in WordPress—I was in Linux or whatever—and part of my core… I wrestle with this, it’s so hard. I saw you pause, and I’m like, “Ah, I’m pausing with you,” right? It’s so hard because if I didn’t have to keep my lights on, live, all those kinds of things, and the reality of life, I would want to donate all the hours in the world and do everything for free. But turns out, I actually need to live. I actually need to… We all do.

People have families, people have lives that they need to do. People have bills that they need to pay. People actually have projects that they want to build that will further… This project will further WordPress. And it turns out that actually open source earning money for people isn’t a bad thing, as long as you are also putting back into it—because you’re putting back into yourself. And that’s something that I came to, quite difficult. I always thought that I could… It was quite hard for me personally to be sponsored. It was quite hard for me personally to take those approaches. I still think that you’ve also got to recognize what your personal… For me, I’ve gained so much throughout the years. There is a debt there. I think I’m paying off that debt in some ways. But I was full-time sponsored for a while, so you have to kind of balance that. But that goes back to—and this has always been said in the project—”to your own self.” You are saying how many hours you do.

You are saying your own self, so guide yourself. If you are good with what you’re doing, then you’re good with what you’re doing. And I think we need to be a little bit less… If someone really needs help to be part of the project and they’re really useful, that’s way better to help them than to see them leave the project—that kind of approach is better. But we also don’t need to put money in all areas. We can’t sponsor everybody today, but what we can do is slowly build an ecosystem that recognizes this stuff takes work, right? It’s not magic fairies that come in and do work. We all don’t have TARDISes and time machines and magic things and all those kinds of things… Ability time-turners and all those English time-traveling devices.

Jonathan:
So, one of the things that I’ve generally found helpful, especially when talking to companies who come into the space, is one: focusing on this idea that altruism is not… Because sometimes—I don’t know about you, Tammie—but sometimes I see companies coming in trying to figure out what they’re supposed to say. And because they see the size of the WordPress ecosystem, they want to serve their existing customers and acquire new customers in the space, and they have this sense that, “Okay, I need to contribute. I want to be accepted in this space.” And I see them almost tiptoeing. And I find it helpful to say, “Hey, there are two factors that are top of mind for me.” First is that a company should be able to recognize—should be able to identify—aligned incentives. They should be able to be clear that this isn’t a charity set aside. There can certainly be aspects of that, and I’m grateful for those who do that.

Tammie:
And that’s the foundation. If they want to do a donation, donate to the foundation.

Jonathan:
A hundred percent—you can put money into the foundation.

Tammie:
Exactly.

Jonathan:
The other aspect of it… So, there’s first: What are your motivations? It’s like, I want companies to see—because I think with individuals it’s more straightforward, but I think with companies is where this can get tricky—see that your incentives can be aligned with this from a, “How does this impact your bottom line?” The other side of it is encouraging companies to play to their strengths. For instance, I think a classic example of this is, let’s say you’re a hosting company in the WordPress space. Your assumption might be that you need to go to the hosting team and get involved there, and that could be great. But maybe that’s not where your strengths lie, and maybe there are other parts of the project that are more interesting. And I think that’s something that I’ve noticed. What has your experience been? How do you think about that?

Tammie:
Yeah, so that similar conversation that I always have… I have, “Okay, what do you have?” So, one of the things always is, “Who can I sponsor?” That seems like the top question that always gets asked.

Jonathan:
Right, that’s kind of the go-to.

Tammie:
“Okay, that’s one thing you can do, and it’s amazing. And as someone that takes sponsorship—you are awesome, great, thank you for that.” But have you thought of other options? Then I list them. I’m like, “What you could do is you could take all the awesome things you’re already doing. Are any of those going to be incredible for the project? Or is there something happening in the project that you could be involved in, could help with learning, that could then be brought back to your company?” That is generally something they’re not even thinking about. So, data views—that’s my favorite pet, one of the things I love. I keep on going back because it’s one of my favorite things in WordPress at the moment, apart from the design system. But things like that, for a hosting company, learning about that for dashboards… Oh my goodness, right? Different things like that, or for the design system for a product maker—going in, helping with that, helping with the documentation. As you say, the team that you are in, the product area, actually generally is not the one. Plugin’s a good one—amazing, we just got to zero. You’re doing a plugin—I don’t want to say don’t go to the plugin team—but there are so many teams you could go to that do not have attention, that are parts of the garden. I’m going to go with that metaphor. I never know if it’s a metaphor or simile, so please correct me.

Jonathan:
I’m not sure either.

Tammie:
I think it’s like or something—it’s a like or something. But there are parts of the garden that aren’t being tended correctly, or just veering because people are going into the areas which are just like, “Oh my goodness.” And they did—they totally were dying, and they totally did need help, right?

Jonathan:
Yeah. So, when I am talking about WordCamp to someone who’s never been to a WordCamp, one of the illustrations that I like to use, or I like to try and set their expectations, is I say, “Well, first off, it’s run by volunteers.” And the way that I describe that is that

there are going to be some parts of this WordCamp that are going to be better than anything you’ve seen at other conferences, and other parts that are not going to be. And then when people see the price of the ticket, they’re surprised at how low it is. There are a number of things that are quite unique. And to me, the reason why that’s the case is it’s like, who shows up to help with that particular WordCamp? And what typically happens is that you will see the passion and the skills of those who showed up bear out. Some things will be done really well, and others will be the best they could be given the limited resources that were available.

And I think, when I think about our project, I see it as an example—a metaphor, perhaps—of our project as a whole. And what you need to run a successful WordCamp are a lot of volunteers. And on the whole, when they each play to their individual strengths, you get something incredible that comes out of it. And I think the same thing applies in our ecosystem. You need a wide range of skills and abilities, and if a company comes in, finds an aligned interest, and just does the thing that they’re already enjoying doing and they’re good at… And to your point, a plugin being part of the plugin review team is probably not the play for most people, but what’s your product focused on? What’s the thing that you’re doing? Maybe that’s what you can bring.

Tammie:
And what’s on your roadmap is also something to think about. Where are you going? What do you want to learn the skills for? We had the Learn JavaScript Deeply campaign—that actually saw quite a few people come to Core to learn JavaScript. That is incredible, right? What’s the next thing that you need to come to Core to learn? I think we’ve forgotten a little bit—that’s how most of us learned how to do what we do. I did, right? By coming to Core, contributing. And so, that’s actually a really, really powerful part of contribution. So, play to your events. Companies, particularly the bigger companies, they have incredible events, incredible organizing. Bringing some of those skills into these really helps because they can then bring those skills. But also, the Showcase Day—that’s something that I haven’t necessarily seen at other events. So then, taking that to other open source events—I would love to see that taken to different conferences and different things.

So, I think it goes to different spaces. And one of your contributions might be… The TV team is kicking off again—maybe you start doing demos, maybe you really want to start producing content. There was a meeting of YouTubers and all of those kinds of things. Like, how can you start creating content? There are so many different ways now. And those ways of adapting… Companies have to adapt with the market. They have to adapt, they have to use these… TikTok-y things, and they have to do the social medias and all those kinds of things that the project needs to learn.

Jonathan:
So, as we’re working towards wrapping this up, I’ve got two things for us to see if we can get something helpful to folks who are listening—the benefits, and where to start. So, I’m arguing that altruism—just feeling good—isn’t… It’s a great benefit, but it’s not the only benefit. And for a company trying to make a decision about whether or not to invest in the project, I’d argue that there are a lot of other benefits that align with what’s good for the company. What are your thoughts? What are some of the benefits that a company could get out of contributing? And then we’ll talk about ways they can contribute.

Tammie:
I’d go with, just look at what your roadmap is. What do you need? Where are you going for other conferences? Where are you going for other learning resources? Can you learn that by doing it in the project? To reiterate my point earlier—honestly, I suspect if you’re in the WordPress ecosystem, you can learn those by doing them in the project. Or, where are the different markets? You could do that within the project, and that is going to be incredibly powerful for you. And also, who can you partner with who is already working? Now, if you are a WordPress company but you are not necessarily going through a growth period, you’re going through a stability period—that’s going to be a different conversation. So, I would look at, “Okay, what skills do you have? What skills do you want to level up?” That would be one of those things as well. But it’s looking at, “What do you have in-house? What do you need to bring in-house?” All those kinds of things as well. So, your roadmap is… I am the product person, and your roadmap is where I always bring you to—look at your roadmap, and then look at that and have a contribution roadmap. I would say, as a company, that is essential for you as well.

Jonathan:
I like that you brought up the point of practice because that is a big part of it. There are a lot of people who I know personally got their start in speaking, in leadership, in skill development, volunteering at a meetup and then a WordCamp. There’s a whole series of things. So, as you’re looking as a company and as teams, there are a lot of things that you can do. And one of the things that you’ve helped me learn over the years, Tammie, is thinking about hybrid roles. Because sometimes people will be like, “Okay, we need to have a full-time contributor.” And one of the things that I’ve seen is that there’s actually… That’s great, really grateful for the people who are full-time, and there are certain roles and focuses where I think you really need that. And there’s a lot of value in people who are mixing, where they’re working for clients, working for customers, working on products, and also working on the project and bringing those two things together. And they both benefit—both parts of their work benefit from it.

Tammie:
I’m going to plus-one that because there are so many areas of this project. Going back in time with Gutenberg—hearing the voices of people who worked in areas that I didn’t know… I was a full-time contributor—I didn’t know about big agency sites. I could listen, I could experience by proxy through people. And since I left and I’ve not been a full-time contributor, I have felt that. And there is something about being able to feel that and know that in my bones and experience that. And I carry that with me now, and I carry that with me in a way that a full-time contributor isn’t… That doesn’t make them any less—that just means their experience is different. I also carry the experience of a full-time contributor, and they do that. Someone who is maybe only in an agency space will never have. So, by everyone coming together and listening and sharing that experience… But you may have experience in high-security, risk banking, for example, and being able to go and contribute to the performance team or security team with those perspectives is incredible. So, those kinds of things…

Jonathan:
I remember when… Some listeners may know the name Jeff Paul—he’s been involved in the project for some time—and I remember when he started first getting involved and brought his project management thinking. And it was part of… It’s like…

Tammie:
Someone trying to project manage us?

Jonathan:
And it turns out, we found a lot of value in that.

Tammie:
We really needed it.

Jonathan:
There are so many different ways. So, Tammie, if someone’s feeling inspired, they’re like, “Okay, I can find ways that contribution can align with things that benefit me personally, professionally, corporately.” Where should they start?

Tammie:
I hate to be a broken record, but start with your roadmap. Look at where your plans are, what time you have. If you do not have any time, then look at sponsoring someone—that’s your answer. Sponsoring and donating. There are groups that can kind of collect things, but also donating. That’s probably not what we’re talking about here, though. What we’re probably talking about is having people that want to… Look at where they’re going and how they want to do it, and then finding the teams that are working in the areas that you want to go into. And there are weekly meetings—that’s step one. Turn up to the weekly meetings. Most (but not all) teams have team reps.

Jonathan:
And for those who don’t know, where do you go to find the teams? What are these teams?

Tammie:
Make.WordPress.org. I felt like that was a pop quiz! There is actually a new contributors quiz there, but that’s very individual. I think as a company, you’ll probably have a few areas. The other thing is: pledge for your company. Put your organization down there. Once you’re like, “Hey, we want to do this,” shout about it. Also, the other thing I’m going to say, just as a quick one: Every month, say what your company’s doing. Be clear. And as an individual, say what you’re sponsoring, what you’re doing, your own time, and what you’re doing. Because more people should be saying what they’re doing in core and sharing what they’re doing. There are a few people that are sponsored that do it

, and I think that’s great. And I would love to see what more companies are doing as well.

Jonathan:
One of my encouragements… You mentioned the teams. By my last check, I believe there are 22 teams at the moment.

Tammie:
Oh, I do not count!

Jonathan:
But there’s a lot of range there, and I think just going through and reading about those teams, you’ll find valuable and interesting things, and that might spark, like, “Oh wow, this is something that I would enjoy contributing to.” And then, like you said, just showing up to the meetings. And if you miss them, they’re asynchronous—you can read them.

Tammie:
Well, a good example: The documentation team has documents, but it also has HelpHub around the hallway. So, these teams have sub-teams in them. Core themes also have the default theme. Core has components, which are basically subsections of every single thing you see in Core, which is the main product. So, there’s so much. And Core doesn’t just mean code, but really, just turn up to any one of those meetings and go, “Hi!” That is a good place to start. There is also a mentorship program, but that’s very much for individuals to contribute to.

Jonathan:
I also love the point that you made about just showing what you’re doing. That’s something I’m looking forward to, and hoping that we have more Showcase Days. I’d love for people to just be sharing, “Hey, here’s something cool I built.” It’s helpful, it’s inspiring, and that’s the energy that I want to see more of in this space.

Tammie:
That’s also a contribution. If you are a small company and a startup, and you’re still in the growth stage, and you haven’t got any of this stuff that you can do, and you are just doing your own contribution and are able to do a couple of hours a month—awesome! You are great. Get on Twitch and demonstrate what you’re building, and try and build as openly as possible. I do have deep respect for people. And share the awesome stuff you’re building! I want to see more people sharing. We have a lot of DevRels who are full-time sponsors who are sharing, but we don’t seem to share what we’re building and creating. Twitch, YouTube—choose your own adventure—and just start getting excited and sharing it. I want to see what people are building as well.

Jonathan:
Excellent. Well, Tammie, if folks want to reach out to you, what’s the best way for them to do that?

Tammie:
It is Cose on all the things.

Jonathan:
And it feels weird to say it, sir Jonathan. It’s a username I’ve had since I was a kid, and I’m just going to…

Tammie:
Same! I had the same problem.

Jonathan:
Thanks for chatting, Tammie.

Tammie:
Thanks.