Real Stories About Navigating the Accessibility Landscape

Anne Bovelett:
Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Accessibility Insights. And in fact, we’ve changed the name of the show. It used to be all things WordPress and accessibility, but Bob granted me the honor to make it Accessibility Insights. It means we can go broad inside of the topic of ecommerce and accessibility. I’m your host. My name is Anne Bovelett. I am Dutch. I live in Germany in a city with a complex name and usually people call me Anne. And if you ever have questions about accessibility in ecommerce, come and find me. My credentials are everywhere. And today with me I have the super, super host and founder of do the Woo, Bob Dunn. He’s usually sticking around to do all the recordings and help us with that, but today he is part of the accessibility conversation in ecommerce. And another friend of mine here, Bud Kraus, and I had the pleasure of speaking with Bud recently. It was so much fun. It was a while ago that I saw him in real life. I remembered that very well. It was in Athens. And so I spontaneously asked Bob yesterday, I think, would you like to come on to the show? Because I enjoyed talking to him so much. It is fluid, it is good, it’s real. And this is what I like in a good podcast. So, Bud, can you introduce yourself? Because not everybody knows who you are, that’s for sure.

Bud Kraus:
Thank you, Anne. Hello, everybody. My name is Bud Kraus. I’m a WordPress content creative who’s also visually impaired. I guess that’s one of my main credentials here and find myself struggling from time to time with ecommerce websites.

Anne Bovelett:
All right. People ask me often, like, what do you do? And this is really complex to explain to someone who’s not into web design development and so on. But at some point I found the description where I said, well, people like me are working to teach others how to make sure that your grandma doesn’t have to call you when she wants to order something online. Right? So that’s. That would be a great definition. And as we are speaking about ecommerce web shops. I think this is important for people to hear what it’s like for you to go online. And actually, if I think I put myself in the shoes of the owners or creators of webshops, this might be a very enlightening episode. Right. The risk we all have is that if they get really good at making their shops accessible, that’s going to cost us a lot of money because we would be spending more online. Right. But I want to start off with something positive. So I’m going to ask you first, bud, is there a webshop online that you really love where you are like, okay, if I have to go there and I have to order something online that goes in a breeze, you know.

Bud Kraus:
That’S an interesting question and I’m trying to think because believe it or not, I can only think of things that I don’t like. But that’s not what I’m supposed to tell you. I think Amazon is really good. I think it’s really good. They’re very customer focused, obviously, and I think ordering and reordering is their genius. I think it’s really easy to reorder stuff that you’ve already ordered. So I’m going to list Amazon now. I think if I don’t like the mega. Here we go with, I don’t like. But I’m not crazy about mega menus. I generally cannot stand them. But Amazon does a really good job with the way they present lots of links when you hover over the main navigation. So kudos to Amazon. But if you want me to talk about, and I know you haven’t asked this yet, what are some of the barriers? Well, I have plenty of those.

Anne Bovelett:
Well, we will get to that in a minute. So it’s important, you know, these things, even for the developers of Amazon, can be painful. Right. And I like to come from. Yes. And I really want to hear from you guys the things that you don’t like about it, but I also love to hear what you do like about it. It is giving people courage. Right. So, Bob, the same question for you. Is there a web shop where you’re like, oh, yeah, that one is so cool, I can really use it.

BobWP:
I begrudgingly say Amazon too, because, yeah, I mean, you know, that’s probably where I shop most online, where I live now. But I will also say any site that gives me the option to shop and translate into English without using the browser, English has a. Has a big plus for me.

Anne Bovelett:
Right, so you’re talking about the option just to switch the language.

BobWP:
Yeah, you have to count on your browser because sometimes that works and sometimes it doesn’t.

Anne Bovelett:
Oh, yeah. Or Google Translate gives you some really weird things if they have that installed. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, a webshop that I particularly like, for example, is. I don’t know if it’s in the U.S. in, in Germany, in the Netherlands we have it. It’s called Zalando and it’s a shop for clothes and stuff. And then maybe you’ll go like, oh, yeah, she’s a girl, she likes to buy clothes. No, I shop online because I hate to buy clothes. And this is also an important thing because, okay, compared to you guys, I might be a young flower, but I’m 54 myself. And I notice that things are getting more difficult. Contrasts, things are not easy to use and. Yeah, so to me, Zalando is a positive example. For me, Amazon is a nightmare. Many things are moving. So many things are happening. And I know this has to do with me having cognitive issues like ADHD and I have dyscalculia and I have a very strange form of dyslexia. So the way information is presented is very important and it’s so interesting to hear that you guys really like it. And the point you mentioned, bud, where it’s easy to order and reorder, that’s a great thing. And didn’t Amazon had all the rights on the one click checkout for a hundred years?

Bud Kraus:
And that’s absolutely the magic secret to their sauce? Is that what you just mentioned, which propelled them into the stratosphere, right?

Anne Bovelett:
Oh, yeah, I did. Right. So can you also mention a webshop bot where you’re like, I wish it worked for me, I would buy there.

Bud Kraus:
Yes. And I’m going to broaden it out, if you don’t mind, because it is ecommerce, at least I think so. Are airline tickets okay? Yeah. The ultimate nightmare for everyone. It is so out of my reach that my wife has to do all the bookings. I cannot book on it. I just totally freeze. There’s just too much information. There’s too many options. There’s too much, too many barriers to getting something accomplished in a reasonable period of time. That’s partly to do with the nature of the industry. That’s partly to do with the. The way this is all presented online. So I don’t even attempt it anymore. I have just totally just, you know. And she can’t stand it because she also has a lot of problems with it too.

Anne Bovelett:
Did it ever make you choose another airline?

Bud Kraus:
I don’t even go there anymore. I mean, I don’t even, you know, I just. So. I’m almost like allergic to booking tickets online. I mean, I can’t do it.

Anne Bovelett:
But you travel a lot.

Bud Kraus:
Yeah, well, she does it. And not only that, but in general, almost any ticket booking system is a nightmare for me. I just. I almost can’t breathe anymore when I see these booking systems.

Anne Bovelett:
I hear you. I have the same problem. I just go to the travel agency here in the city center and I say, do it for me. I don’t care if I have to pay more.

Bud Kraus:
Right.

Anne Bovelett:
And yeah, airlines actually lose customers over that. And for you, Bob, I can’t think.

BobWP:
Specifically because it just scattered, you know, kind of all over. One of the frustrating things I find is site set really goes sideways when you, like, block popups and stuff. You know, having a browser and you have a set and how many times I move from one browser to the next. And it works perfectly in one browser and I spent the last 10 minutes in the other one. Couple sites I’m on, and they’re specific. Over here in Europe, every time I try to type something in it, it doesn’t type it. It just goes backwards or it starts going to the end and start putting in weird characters. I have no idea what’s going on. If it’s something in my browser and the only way I can use it. And some of them are kind of important to me, and they’re. The only option I have is to cut and paste the content into each.

Anne Bovelett:
Field, which is, you know, in fact, to me, that sounds a bit like a browser issue. Did you ever try to open that incognito window where all your extensions are off?

BobWP:
Yeah, sometimes I do. And sometimes that works. And sometimes I do. Sometimes it doesn’t work.

Anne Bovelett:
Well, this brings me to another interesting question, right? Because in fact, web stores and physical stores have some things in common in a way most people don’t expect. So imagine this. You’re in a shopping. Street shopping mall somewhere and you’re walking into a store and you were impulsed by something. You’re like, yeah, let me get that in the store right away. Okay. Now, I know for a lot of people this is in the US that live in big areas where malls are not everywhere. This is maybe a less lived reality. But in Europe, we have lots of small stores in small villages, right? And malls inside these villages. And this is. All right, so I’m sidetracking. Sorry. Happens to me all the time. This is ADHD 101. Absolutely. So anyway, so you go so the reason why I’m saying it is my experience when I’m in the US and I go to a mall, everything is well organized, there is air conditioning, the stores are clean. People are very service minded. They will come and welcome you. So much more than here in Europe. Okay, I want to say something that the Germans are not going to like. And I don’t care. I live here and I come into a store here and they’re grumpy, they’re not even happy to see me. I’m going to drop some money on their counter and they’re not happy to see me. And if they’re not happy enough, you know, I’m like, you know what? I was going to say something really rude, but I’ll say, go sit on a cactus. Okay, so I’m walking out and then if this, these are friendly people and you are in this store and it stinks a little, maybe someone stepped in dog poop just before you. Or maybe the sewer is. Something’s wrong with the sewer. It happens everywhere, right? And then you’re in the store and then slowly your brain starts telling you, ah, oh, oh, shit, I still have to feed the cats. Oh, maybe I can order this online. Your brain is going to give you all kinds of reasons to move out, all right? And mostly most of us are not even aware that that is what is happening. You just want to move out of a situation. It’s the same thing with web shops. Like, I came onto Zara today just to show someone something and there is this video screaming in my face. It doesn’t stop moving. I cannot make it stop, so I will never order something there.

Bud Kraus:
Well, I wanted to bring up two things. One is any. And Bob, this really goes back to what he was saying a bit ago. Anytime you have content that overlaps of other content, that is not a good experience. Along that idea is these, these chat windows that you see on the. Usually the lower right hand corner, they are so inaccessible or difficult to work with. Usable, accessible, however you want to define that. Boy, if you couldn’t see anything, I wonder how you could even use this. But even for people like me that do have good usable vision, I have a problem like a lot of times closing the window, opening the window, moving the window, you know, all that kind is collapsing the window, all that kind of stuff that just. And it’s covering up content that I need to see in order to communicate with the person.

Anne Bovelett:
Yeah, how do you. But, yeah, but how do you feel about something? Opening things in new tabs when you are on your mobile.

Bud Kraus:
Well, okay. I generally don’t use mobile because it’s very hard for me to navigate. So that tells you something right there. Okay, so even the best sites, I, when it comes to buying stuff, I don’t think I have ever bought anything on mobile. So that really does tell you something, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I’ve just realized that. So I’m really just talking about desktop. And the other thing I wanted to mention about was there are a lot of websites, any website, really, not just necessarily ecommerce, that have these little info icons that when you hover over them, a little pop up, like tooltip shows up. Well, for some of us, we actually have a hard time reading those. So we’ll use a. We’ll just highlight it and let the speaker, let your computer talk to you. But a lot of times you can’t do that. So if you hover over that bubble, it disappears. So there. That’s another. And I’m not just saying this is obviously just for ecommerce, it’s just for websites in general.

Anne Bovelett:
This is for everywhere. Yeah, that’s a really great point.

Bud Kraus:
Now one last thing I wanna throw in, which is I think this is. And this also goes to the grumpy persons that you were talking about that it’s so important for websites to stay in touch with their customers at the pre sale sale, post sale, all those different points. I’ll give you a case in point. I just signed up with Big Scoots for one of my sponsors for my podcast to be my web host. Okay. And they told me that they would be very hands on and. And they were right. Okay. So for every little step along the way, if I needed help or it was really good. This wasn’t just like saying those things. They were following through.

Anne Bovelett:
They’re well known for it.

Bud Kraus:
Yeah, yeah. For their service.

Anne Bovelett:
Yeah.

Bud Kraus:
And I’ve heard about that. Yeah. And it did turn out to be true. So you can’t. The customer service experience is very much tied into making things accessible.

Anne Bovelett:
It is when you think about it.

Bud Kraus:
Yeah.

Anne Bovelett:
What about you, Bob?

BobWP:
Just a couple thoughts. I guess it. For me it’s distractions and moving things. I mean, in the way I like Amazon, but in a way it’s like overwhelming. And you know, thank God for their filters and stuff because. And sometimes those don’t work as well as I would hope. But I think it is. It’s like anybody that has moving stuff going on and things are changing up a lot. And I remember, I don’t know if either one of you ever saw this? There was a physical store that they were kind of making a point about ciders.

Anne Bovelett:
Yeah.

BobWP:
And what they do is they put out a. This long rack of clothes and when somebody walked up to it, about 10 seconds later it moved away.

Anne Bovelett:
I go, nice, yeah.

BobWP:
And the people were looking at it and they were like, you know, wait a minute, I was looking at this and now what’s this stuff in front of me? So.

Bud Kraus:
Right.

BobWP:
Yeah. There’s a lot of the motion that I think can be done without on E Commerce stores and there’s not a lot that do it. But yeah, I have, I have different frustrations, you know, and it’s one of those things that it’s especially tiring when it’s a site. You don’t have much options but to struggle.

BobWP:
Whether you’re just starting to build that.

BobWP:
Woo.

Anne Bovelett:
It’s a big accessibility company in Scandinavia that in Accessibility we tend to only focus on the groups with different disabilities who use assistive technology. But accessibility is about cognitive issues as well. And this is not just for people who have problems in their brain and in their perception when they’re young, but also when you’re getting old. And then he said it goes up to 60, right. And I mean, hey, I mean, Bob, I know you’re buying expensive equipment for your shows and I think Bud would do the same. And this is something that maybe we should give as a message to all these webshop owners. Do not think that you do not have an audience over 50, for example. Oh man, I sometimes I joke, you know, and say the webshop owners, man, I’m so happy you’re inaccessible because otherwise my mom would go bankrupt on you. Right? So. And one last question that I have Is have you ever felt an impulse to. When you were on a web shop that really did frustrate you, but they do have the stuff that you need. Did you ever try to find a way to contact them? Do you ever. Did you ever get a feeling like, oh, I can actually give my feedback and they will do something with that? Did that ever happen?

BobWP:
You know, I think I might have in the past. I can’t think of any particular instance, but, you know, sometimes you grab for the chat and some bot tells you something. Then you gotta wait for agent, but the agent isn’t there because they have certain working hours. And, you know, you go in that vicious circle.

Anne Bovelett:
What about you, bud? But did you ever, like you were somewhere on a shop or on a site and you really wanted something from them and you couldn’t, and you wanted it so bad that you filled out their contact form? Or maybe you. You did try to talk to that awful channel.

Bud Kraus:
A modified answer to that would be, I used a Weight Watchers system for quite a long time. And then about a year ago. Yeah. And it worked. And then they took away their desktop. So I was very upset about that because I couldn’t use the mobile because it was too small. And then, you know, and I’d have to listen.

Anne Bovelett:
Same here.

Bud Kraus:
So I, I did actually reach out to them and said, okay, I guess you don’t care about me or something snippy. And they could have told me, and they didn’t, that we are going to have an app that you can download and use on your computer. And I left them for a year. I could have been paying them for a whole year. And recently I found out there’s a desktop app for Weight Watchers.

Anne Bovelett:
There is, there is, there is.

Bud Kraus:
That works right. In my Mac computer. And now I have it and I use it. And I signed up again. So they launched a whole year of revenue from me. Because they didn’t. After I communicated with them, they did not communicate back. It says, well, wait a second, we still got you covered. You can use our. Download our. Our app for the desktop.

Anne Bovelett:
See? And now you see it. There is good intent on all sides. Right. You wanted to use their app. You’re happy with them. They had good intent because they were working on this app and someone in the middle screwed it up by not communicating with you.

Bud Kraus:
Yeah. And it just. Yeah, that’s the bottom line. I mean, and these companies have to be. One last thing, too, about. I know we’re running out of time, but one last thing. I have a very hard time When a website makes major design or even minor sometimes design changes to their user interface. Because I’m sort of like the Helen Keller school of browsing websites. That is, I know where everything is sort of tactilely, you know, I don’t necessarily read everything. I mean, I see things sort of like bits and pieces. But if something’s over here and now it’s going to be over here, that’s going to really make me.

Anne Bovelett:
That’s like your supermarket refurbishing and everything. And I saw Bob nodding. I saw Bob. You have a problem with that too, right?

BobWP:
Yeah, it is. It drives you nuts.

Bud Kraus:
And that’s a cognitive thing, that’s a visual thing, that’s a everything thing. But boy, companies, if you notice, Amazon does make changes, but they’re very small, they’re very subtle. A B test the stuff to the cows come home every day.

Anne Bovelett:
Yeah.

Bud Kraus:
And that’s what I like. But I know companies can’t always A B test every little change, you know, across the fortune.

Anne Bovelett:
No, I know they can’t. But a company, you know, the thing is one of the reasons why I get upset when Amazon is not improving on certain things. I know they are. I would love to talk to them one day just to pick their brain about how they’re doing it.

Bud Kraus:
I once heard Jared Spruill, he’s one of the guys that are involved in a big name in usability and design and he talked about, he was involved in the initial, one of the early stages and he talked all about what you’re just talking about was very interesting.

Anne Bovelett:
Well, and one thing I think about is I have friends who are artists and they used to be on Etsy, but as he became successful of dropshipping from across the pond and so they moved to Amazon and every time I see it, I’m like, but guys, you should talk to Amazon about these things too because then you will also sell more on Amazon as a channel if that gets better. And this is just that people should just talk to each other. And this is why I’m asking you guys, like, hey, did you ever feel like reaching out or something? Because maybe we could give this as a message to anyone in ecommerce.

Bud Kraus:
Yeah. When you talk about the cost of making sites accessible and all that kind of stuff, you have to think of the cost of not doing it.

Anne Bovelett:
Yeah, the cost of not doing it is insane. I created a paper. Yeah, yeah, I created a paper not so long ago. It’s not about that. In fact, it’s more about how do you recognize accessibility cowboys you know, the charlatans, the people who are trying to sell you accessibility services where you don’t know that they can. But at the bottom of that, I have listed an example of the ROI on accessibility, where I just took a shop that does 1.5 million a year. So they’re below the threshold for the European Accessibility act, for example. But I’m saying, like, what if you invest 20k in making things accessible or more accessible, and then what? The ROI is at 1.5%, at 5% more revenue and 10%. Those numbers are crazy. But I think. Yes, they’re crazy, but I think people don’t know how to talk to each other about this or how to interact with their customers about this. Because your customers, as a store, whether you’re physical or online, they are your biggest source of great feedback.

Bud Kraus:
Yeah, right.

Anne Bovelett:
Yeah. So, yeah, I would really, really say to webshops, hey, folks, even if you’re not, you don’t have to comply. You just like, let money flash out of the door. You’re absolutely.

Bud Kraus:
But don’t you think there’s more awareness now than ever before about accessibility and that things are getting better? Or are they getting.

Anne Bovelett:
Yeah, there is. But unfortunately, out of fear, you know, the ADA lawsuit, the European Accessibility act that is coming in just a couple of months, people are afraid that they’re going to get fines, but it’s. Even if you’re not in the threshold of that. So just. So for anyone watching or listening to this, there’s a lot of confusion about that too. If your webshop makes more than 2 million per year in turnover or you have more than 10 employees, it’s not. And, and it is. Or then you have to comply with the European Accessibility Act. But I don’t understand how you would worry about that. Because if you worry about that threshold, because if you make things accessible, actually the search engines are also going to love you much better. There’s a cacophony in the search engines now because of AI, Right? We hear all about that. And now I hear like, hey, the engines are really looking at project pages, product pages. The AI is. You have to improve your product pages because all these generally SEO optimized blog articles, it’s not working anymore. It is looking at the real stuff.

Bud Kraus:
Sorry, are you saying that markup doesn’t matter anymore?

Anne Bovelett:
Markup matters more? No, but I’m talking about companies investing so much money and getting blog articles out there, which is good, but they have to be unique. It has to be unique content.

Bud Kraus:
Yes, that’s true. Yeah.

Anne Bovelett:
You know, nobody likes listicles anymore. No, no, but that’s a whole other topic. I think we have some great podcast hosts on do the Woo who know a lot about that. Right, Bob?

BobWP:
No kidding. But one thing I was going to add about there can be somebody. I mean, the three of us, we have our issues, but we are comfortable with technology now. Other people our age that maybe aren’t on the computer all the time aren’t doing things, you know, the struggle they have. I can imagine. You know, when I’m on some sites, I think, wow, at least I kind of get what, you know, I should maybe do here. But it’s not something you should normally think about.

Anne Bovelett:
Yeah, you’re absolutely right. And it’s what is an interesting thing. Although this doesn’t have anything to do with webshops, but there is this other side where people are hollering like, oh, we would like websites to be more artistic and to be more creative. But yeah, you can. But websites just have to work. It just has to work. It’s like if I went into a technology store once that was really fancy, had just set up, it almost looked like an Apple Store, but they didn’t put the prices on their article. You know how fast I walked out of there?

BobWP:
Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah.

Anne Bovelett:
It’s, it’s. And this is the daily reality for, for people, even if, if you have your pricing on the side. And it’s unclear where this is, by the way, speaking of Amazon and I can’t tell them how to solve it, this is also a difficult part. One of the things I, it took me ages to discover, you go on Amazon and then they have these articles in different colors or clothes and in different sizes. Right? And then, for example, you’re looking at these black pants and then it says, it’s not there in my size anymore. Okay, it’s not there. It’s not. Doesn’t have my size. And then by accident, I discovered when I clicked on another color, they did have that one in my size, but just in another color. Now, if I hadn’t figured that out, I wouldn’t have bought those pants because I did like them in black and in white. So that’s a UI thing. I really think if web shops put. And site owners in general would talk to their users and they would ask them, how would things get better without trying to automate that? You know, it’s more expensive to get a whole email automation thing going that will say, hey, look, I’m going to give you a 25 bucks voucher if you tell me how you like my website. That’s cognitive stress. You have to read that email, you have to log on, you have to type what you think or what you don’t think. I don’t know how many people are going to do that. I think lots of people are out of there. But what if you get someone that’s just like someone outside the store, you know, and saying, hey, can I ask you something? I’m not going to sell you anything. And just nice and calm. I think you’d get a lot of feedback.

BobWP:
Well, and Amazon’s strange in a way, and I don’t think they do price range because like you were saying with pants, you could click on black pants and then click on the same pair in blue and it’s €2 more.

Bud Kraus:
Oh, yeah, yeah.

BobWP:
I wasn’t aware of that. And then you’re clicking through to see what prices are and it just seems like a time waster.

Anne Bovelett:
I feel cheated on when I see that. Especially when the price goes up. Yeah, it’s. Yeah. So, last question. If you could say something to webshop owners about this, what would you tell them? Just one thing.

Bud Kraus:
I’m going to take that because that’s for me, an easy question. And it’s very simple, which is when it comes to accessibility, you know, when you make something accessible, you make it possible for me to use and you make it better for everyone else. It’s just that simple. And accessibility is a web design standard. So let’s keep that in mind. And you can’t go wrong when you make your website and content available for the widest possible audience.

Anne Bovelett:
That’s true. That’s true.

BobWP:
And you, Bob, you know, I’m kind of lame with answers like that because I always go to my trite overall answers, but it’s like.

Bud Kraus:
I’m sorry, mine was pretty trite, Bob.

BobWP:
But it’s like that. I look at it and it’s as simple as don’t assume, Don’t. Don’t assume this is right for your audience.

Anne Bovelett:
About that I have. About assumption. I have two last points and I’m going to send you the links, Bob, so we can put them in the show. Notes about assumption. I created a YouTube video that is less than a minute. I think it’s 47 seconds. That shows a simulation of what people see when they’re colorblind or when they’re tired or when there’s too much light outside.

Bud Kraus:
Good one.

Anne Bovelett:
Yeah. And about the choice of certain colors. And I hear from people that is one of the biggest eye Opener openers ever, where they assume that certain people don’t come onto their website. So I’ll share that in the show notes. And I want to end this nice conversation with something very positive. So two years ago, I wanted to create a video tutorial for the users of Elementor, because Elementor did a great thing. They made giving feedback very open, very easy to do, if you understand where you have to go to. Because they started using GitHub for that. And that’s amazing because then you can see and you can follow where you’re at and you can see if something happens with it or not. But at least that’s that. And then I thought, maybe it’s good to do a video tutorial for people who don’t know anything about GitHub, because that’s really scary, right? They’re all like, GitHub, that’s tech stuff. We don’t go there. And I had to do full stop because I hadn’t seen the GitHub login experience since 2011. And so I got on there in an incognito window and suddenly I was like Captain Picard in Star Trek, flying in space. There were stars coming at me and moving stuff. And I was like, oh, no, this is horrible. This is going to chase so many people away, even though it was beautiful. So I wrote them a message and a special board that they have for accessibility, and I just let it sit there. And every three months I would do a little pinprick online somewhere, like, okay, I tried, but no one is answering. And suddenly Carrie Fisher, one of the people I highly admire in accessibility, who was hired by GitHub, wrote me an answer, and that was in August last year. And she said, bear with us, we’re working on it. And on March 7, exactly to the date, two years after I posted that, Carrie wrote me a message on GitHub saying, have a look at our new sign in Experience and sign up Experience, because we changed it. Let me know what you think. I’ve written a blog post about it. I will link it in the show notes as well. Because right now that signup Experience shows every designer who says you can’t create a beautiful accessible website that they’re on, that you can, that you have to think in other ways. It’s amazing. It has animations, but they are not disruptive. And if you have a setting on your system that tells animations to stop, it’s called reduced motion. They just not there. So that made me cry. Not because I was sad, but because I was happy and I wish for the world that everybody shares that page, that site, share it with everybody, you know, saying you can create amazing, mesmerizing, beautiful design and still make something very accessible and for all usable. Yeah, that’s the positive note I want to go out with because as accessibility people, we’re always treated like, oh, there’s someone coming back at us again and again. Thank you, Bob, for giving people like me a platform. I’d like to invite everybody to come and comment on the do the Woo website. If you have questions or come Find us on LinkedIn on Twitter. And there’s one thing you need to know about Bud. Bud is doing a fantastic podcast. It’s called Seriously Bud.

Bud Kraus:
Yes. And Bob was at it and you are going to be on it.

Anne Bovelett:
Yes, yes. So it’s, it’s, it’s lovely. And so we will share that link in the show notes as well because there you get to know the people in WordPress not talking about it. So thank you everyone and I hope you join in the next time everybody’s going to share. And if you want to come onto the show because you have to say something about accessibility, or if you want to reach out to the E Commerce WooCommerce market in general about this topic of UI and UX, let us know.