Looking Back at WordPress Rome Core Days 2024

Miriam:
Hi Tammie.

Tammie:
Hi, how are you?

Miriam:
I’m okay. How are you?

Tammie:
I’m good, thank you. So we’re going to talk about Core Days.

Miriam:
Yes. Rome Core Days.

Tammie:
Yes, we are. So it was a little while ago. I guess my first question, and this is kind of—I’ll ask you first, Miriam—what were your expectations going to the event?

Miriam:
So I had no idea what to expect. I liked the concept that it was focused on a particular type of user or contributor, specifically contributors. It was Core Days, and I had already encountered the Italian community, and I know that they’re very passionate and motivated. So that combination of focus on Core with the Italian community and the energy that they bring, and then Rome, which isn’t bad—no, I thought this is really interesting. I thought there would be interesting conversations and talks there that you might not get at other WordPress events because it was all about bringing that side of it to the table. Whereas at the other ones, they tried to temper it with different types of conversations and talks. So if you really want that type of content, this is the place to be. So I didn’t know what to expect. I was guessing, and I think more or less it came out that way. That was my experience. What about you? What were you expecting?

Tammie:
So my expectations of Core Days were, initially, I was thinking that it was going to be very dev-heavy, but I guess that was just because of the perception, at least initially. And that wasn’t going to necessarily be a bad thing because I think we needed a focus on that. But what I discovered was it was kind of wider than that, which I was really excited about. But that kind of also makes sense. What was really—it just felt like what was needed in kind of that interesting way. One of those things, and we can kind of get into this in a little bit, what I was hoping was that I would actually get to do some code. It’s a small thing, but often at these kinds of events, like Hallway Track or whatever, I never get time to do workshops. I never get time to sit down.

I always get time to have beautiful interactions with people, and there were a number of workshops and things I was like, “Oh, I wonder if I’m going to get some time.” And I guess I went with that expectation. I did have the happiness of a short flight that was very delightful. So, yeah, I guess that was one of the thoughts for me—just trying something a bit different coming off the back of a big kind of WordCamps. The flagship WordCamps are great, but they feel like they try and do so much. I guess I kind of miss some of those smaller things.

Miriam:
Yeah, I liked that it was kind of like a local WordCamp, so you have that smaller vibe, but it was global in its perspective of what it was progressing. So I imagine that normally, when a conference takes place, a local Italian WordCamp takes place, it’s probably all in Italian. So the talks were in English, making it more geared towards the international community. And we did see, I think, quite a nice turnout from people outside of Italy coming to be part of the conversation.

So I agree—I liked that it was smaller so you could be more part of it, like the talks or the workshops or whatever. But also it was meant for a broader community. So that was really nice.

Tammie:
Yeah, one of the things that struck me was it felt slower—in a good way. I don’t know how to vocalize that, but the time that was there felt like quality time as well. The one that I have to compare was the WCUS. That was the most recent one. My time there just went kind of like that. It was just so fast. You have back-to-back meetings and back-to-back things, and you’re doing things all the time. But because there were a lot fewer people and it was more focused on very specific things, it felt like you had more time to ponder, more time to go through. And when things finished, everyone kind of went to the same after-events as well. No one was going off in different places. So that also felt like there was more time—more quality time as well. I dunno if you got that impression.

Miriam:
Yeah, it still felt hectic for me. I know, I feel like I fly through these events, and I’m like, “Oh my gosh, what happened?” Because it’s still a lot of people that you want to talk to. And then each conversation is anywhere from 10 minutes to an hour, and then talk, talk, talk, talk. And it’s all great. And I love talking to people, and every conversation is amazing, and I learn things. So it was kind of hectic from that perspective.

But it’s definitely a slower pace than one of the flagship events or the US, where that was super hectic—and that also was a nice thing. And like you said, I liked that we were all meeting up in the same places, and it was easy to do that because it wasn’t like a billion people. So you could do that.

Thinking about it, okay, what is the difference between a Core Days conference and a regular WordPress conference? WordCamp—because those are also about Core. And in the end, like you said, this one also wasn’t 100% developer-focused, which I also thought was nice because Core is about so much more than the coding, which is super important. But what’s the difference? It still was different. The content was different.

So I came with one of our co-founders, Ariel Klikstein, and one of our top WordPress developers, Rami Yushuvaev, and Rami especially sat in sessions, and it was super valuable for him. And he’s been at WordCamps, which were interesting. But this content was all for someone like him, but also for people who aren’t like him—like me and for you—we’re not. So somehow it managed to be amazing for someone like that but also relevant for different…

Tammie:
…people. I guess where I would go is it’s about people who are creating already for WordPress. I guess that’s maybe where I would kind of angle it—and are also contributing. Probably that would be the kind of angle. So it did have the presumption that you already knew about Core.

There was a lot of language that was bypassed, so there weren’t a lot of the 101 talks or the 101-level discussions. There was still some “how to contribute” and “how to do,” but it was more at a beyond-the-101 level, if that makes sense. So I think when you’re not dealing with the A’s, you’re going straight to the B’s and C’s. I guess it’s easier to have some of those talks.

And I think some of the WordCamps are still having to cover everything. They don’t know who’s going to walk through the door. When you have a specific conference, then you already are targeting. One thing that struck me at the end—there was this open session about a wider conversation, and the topic came around to having micro WordCamps about different topics. Maybe have a design one, have a developer one. I almost don’t want that.

The reason I don’t necessarily want that is I think you can split too far. Because to me, this was just the right split because it could have anyone that was creating. I kind of wanted more people who were creating, who didn’t feel they were just developers, to be in that space but who would benefit from the technical conversation.

So product managers would really benefit from learning about data views at the level that it was taught. It’s a good example to me. I dunno what you think about that.

Miriam:
I agree with you from a different perspective, which is just the logistics of it. So normally I end up flying a lot during the year, and I really, really try to fly as little as possible. I actually do. I don’t want more than one a month, really. So I already end up flying almost once a month.

And so if there are too many fragmented WordCamps, then there’s really no chance that I’m going to go. And I’m sure for other people, it’s leaving your family, you’re leaving your work. It’s not easy, and it’s expensive. I like that this one was very focused. And I think you’re right that it was focused but also broad. The topic is broad enough that it can apply and be valuable to many different types of people.

So I’ll have FOMO if there’s other really good ones that I can’t go to, but I probably won’t go. So one or two of these.

Actually, I wanted to ask you—soon after Rome Core Days was Developer Days in Lisbon, and I’m very curious about what the difference is.

Tammie:
Yes. I don’t know would be the answer. I just think after Core Days was so good, the FOMO is there. But I guess what I am learning to do—there’s a lot less that I’ve been able to go to recently. So I’ve learned to—I haven’t yet embraced JOMO, because the joy… I’m not quite at the joy of missing out. I’m like the acceptance of missing out—AMO.

Miriam:
Awkward tongue.

Tammie:
Yes, it’s like a robot. But just realizing that I can’t do all the things all the time, and that’s okay, and trying to find the right ones. But something that I think you raised a good point about is if I were trying to send a team, for example, trying to find the right one to send the right people to a team—if there were so many, it would’ve been quite hard to work out which of those two I wanted to send a team to, which were the ones that…

So a good example is if I had a team that was doing data views, the fact that I got to sit and unlock a lot about data views that I’d been poking around but was able to sit down and have a hands-on session—that was so incredible for me personally. And you saw around the room people doing that. I don’t know whether that happened at the other one, but being able to see and know that is really, really important for who you send if you are building a product and want to get people there.

And also, the other thing which is important—there were no videos at Core Days. So it’s not like it was recorded that it could be shared. Now, there was a repo, so that’s something I’ve actually done afterward. I dunno if you’ve done that. I’ve shared the data views repo with people. I’ve gone, “This was amazing—read.”

But that’s sharing a repo—that’s not being there.

Miriam:
With regards to Rome Core Days versus the Developer Days—and then let’s say there are more, right? There’d be more of that. But just with these two, why did we go to Rome Core Days? First of all, because it was the first one that I saw.

I was like, “Oh, that’s cool, we should go to that.” So I organized that we were sponsoring and that we were going. And then only then did I notice—I don’t know, I might’ve just missed it—that they were talking about Developer Days. I was like, “Oh, that also sounds interesting, but we are already going to Rome. We’re not going to both. That’s too much.”

And also, there are some Elementor add-ons like Dynamic.ooo that are Italy-based, so it made sense. There are Elementor connections there—less so that I know of in Portugal, maybe, but that’s not really a reason. That was just circumstantial, and that’s how it worked out.

And we can’t go to everything. We can’t be everywhere. So we want as many WordPress events as possible. It’s good, and they should happen in these different areas so that more people can go from there. But then it’s also important to be aware that people just can’t go to everything. Right?

Tammie:
So reflecting on that one, the things I maybe want to see more of or learn from this as well—is that at some of these flagships, I think I’d like to see—and I think workshops have tried to do this, but workshops haven’t successfully done this.

At least, one of the things that I find really hard to do is attend a workshop at a flagship event. Hand on heart, I don’t remember. I don’t think I’m unique—a lot of people just don’t get time to.

Maybe there needs to be a separate day of workshops. Maybe that is one of the answers. But being able to just sit down and get hands-on with the new technologies and the new bits of WordPress—that was one of the big things that I think Core Days had that you don’t. One thing is someone telling you or talking at you—even a contribution day.

But this was a hands-on version of contribution day. So that, in the back of my mind, was like, “Oh, I love the showcase day at WordCamp US. What if there was a version of that for half a day where there was just a space where you can go and be taught about how to use data views or be taught how to use…” rather than just like, “Oh, here’s an issue,” or “Here’s a talk, go and listen to.”

The flagship might be the best way to do that, but it has to be done in a way where it’s not conflicting with the Hallway Track and business day where business meetings are at the same time.

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Miriam:
That was actually one of my expectations of Core Days—that I thought it would be more practical and that because it would attract people who are top with regards to Core and they would be coming to share their knowledge, it would be valuable for people to attend.

And so I mentioned my colleague—for him, that was exactly what it was. It was very hands-on for me. He really learned a lot. I think I would want to see a Core Days happen, let’s say, once a year, and they talked about maybe doing it in different locations. Fine—whatever works. Ideally in Europe, please—right? Easier.

But whatever works. I think if it’s a good concept and they can build on it, I think there is a need for it. And also, we want to strengthen the contribution-to-Core angle of the project. So with that focus, I think it brings a lot of value.

When they talk about different topics for conferences, one that I’ve been wanting to see for a long time—but it is not kind of happening—it is happening—is one conference with a WordPress business angle. And Raquel is organizing that with her Press Conference. So that kind of answers that need. That’s the only personally, of course, everyone personally—that’s the other topic-focused event I would want to see, and it’s happening. So we’ll see how that is.

Tammie:
If reflecting on that, if we go back to the before time, before the pandemics, before the pandas—we did have that, right? We had those different types of conferences that you could go to. And I think that getting back to that is part of it.

I want to add something to what you are saying about Core Days and the contribution. I think there was a link to contribution with it, but it was kind of like a subtext, if that’s interesting. So one of the things when I kind of went there, I was like, “I’m not sure if this is going to be a contribute-like, beat-the-drum contribute, or if it’s just going to be learn the new stuff.”

And you learn the new stuff—you want to contribute. And that’s kind of how I feel is the best way to contribute. You get so excited about the new stuff you want to, not that you just feel beholden to contribute to it.

Miriam:
I totally agree with you. I think that what I expected it to be, and what it was, was that. And especially considering the events that have happened, I think a lot of us came needing a motivational boost and an inspirational boost—being with other people who inspire you and motivate you.

Not because they’re saying we should all contribute—you’re saying it was more like, “Oh…”

Tammie:
Yeah, it wasn’t like Bart Simpson writing, “I must contribute,” a hundred times on the blackboard. It wasn’t like that, right?

Miriam:
It wasn’t.

Tammie:
And that was the thing for me—I left being inspired, and I actually have carried that with me. And that’s really powerful. Not just for contribution, but to use those new things in my development.

And when I use them in my work, I’m then going to contribute because I’m going to find bugs, I’m going to discover bugs. And that actually was one of the interesting contribution conversations—these things need to… I saw that in several of the talks.

It’s like, “We can say this, but how are you using it?” So in the data views conversation, it was like, “We wanted to put this into—” I’m paraphrasing completely, not murdering the phrase that they said beautifully, but it was, “We can’t do it in all things. We want to just do it in one area and find out how bad it is or how extensive it needs to be by people using it.”

Miriam:
Well, the thing is, if people aren’t aware of how to use it, they’re not going to use it. So that was so great—to have that whole room being empowered to go away and be able to use it.

There were also some really interesting conversations where people were just really honest. Rather than just saying, “Oh, start with testing and start doing this,” it was like, “Well, that doesn’t work for me.”

We had this great conversation as well about closing tickets, and I’ve seen afterward people going ahead and doing that. So it feels like there’s almost more action that came from that, from a community aspect, because people were there and it was small, than I’ve seen in some of the community summits and different things—because people were inspired.

I guess that’s where I’m coming from. If you have that fire and that energy, you’re going to take that into your work. That was a long way of saying that.

Tammie:
Absolutely. In the end, what motivates people isn’t people telling them to be motivated.

Miriam:
“I must be motivated.” I’m not motivated by that.

Tammie:
Totally, totally. “Oh yes, now I’m going to do all the things.” No, it’s being excited about something and interested.

It’s a learning experience, an opportunity—and also an opportunity to connect with other people in the project in different ways and in the community.

So, yeah, I totally agree that it was inspiring that way. And it’s great to hear that real action came out of it.

Tammie:
Yeah, yeah. There were conversations around people closing tickets, which makes me incredibly happy. I’m all about the close, so…

Miriam:
I totally could relate to that.

Tammie:
Thank that ticket. Well, it’s their purpose.

One of the things—I’ve got a couple of things I would love for this Core Days to take into account for changes. I dunno about you.

So one of the things I would like would be just a single track. I found myself really unable to choose at one point. This is a completely selfish statement. I would love it to just be either a single track or that there’s a space where you are doing—maybe there’s a contribution room if we wanted to do that—and that’s the second track.

I dunno what else you would want to change from it.

Miriam:
I totally hear what you’re saying about a single track. On the one hand, two tracks give you more options because a talk at a certain time isn’t necessarily what interests everyone.

But I’ve only actually, as far as I can remember, been to one conference that had a single track, and it was YoastCon run by Yoast, and it was a fantastic format. You can do a single track if you make sure that every talk is amazing.

And really, the advantage of that also is that everyone’s experiencing the same content throughout the day. So we all heard the same talks, and we were all there together. So then the conversations are around that, and it’s a different experience.

I don’t really have an opinion one way or the other. I liked the single track at YoastCon—I think they did an amazing job. I haven’t really seen that anywhere else.

It was challenging. I gave a talk in the second space, and I couldn’t find where I was. Down and round and round and round…

Tammie:
And see half of Rome, literally. So to explain to anyone that wasn’t there, you literally had to go out… well, you kind of went down, and then you went outside to the balcony, and you felt like you were leaving the building, but you weren’t leaving the building. And then you felt like you needed to take snacks—it was that far.

Miriam:
So far that I actually ran into someone I know—not from Italy—because I went so far off the beaten path, someone I know there. Excuse me. I was like, “Well, I’m glad I got lost because I got to see you.”

So anyway, there’s no criticism of the organizers. I know what it’s like to find a suitable space, and I was like, I know—it’s all fine.

But that was one of the things that was when I started speaking—I think I was the first talk in that second space—and it was like 15 minutes in all these people appeared. I think they were also trying to find it. So anyways, that’s fine.

Tammie:
Yeah, I felt that with my talk. My talk was on the same time as I really wanted to be in the other talks and things like that. But that always happens with double talks.

Miriam:
Yeah.

Tammie:
But it is really hard. So WordCamp Whitley Bay, I think, is still a single track. So there are single tracks that have happened.

I think you’re right—it has to be really on point. Maybe having the workshops… I mean, she says, because I’m organizing it, so I can say this.

I mean, that’s the thing—organizing WordCamps and organizing things is a lot. And I think one of the things that I loved about this was that it was in a coworking space. I always think that that’s a great space to have these events.

The location was quite easy for everybody to get hotels. It was quite easy to get to the location by a train station. For people that didn’t go there, there was this food hall near, so that was how everyone conversed afterward.

So when it ended, everyone went to the food hall, got a voucher, and even the after-party was basically in the food hall. So it was one of the few after-parties, I think, where everyone was in the same space. That never happens.

Miriam:
No, you’re right. The location was amazing. And I like the vibe of a coworking space, I agree. Because also it’s like—I don’t know how local WordCamps are so much anymore—but when I organized the WordCamps in Israel, we would do them in a college. You would use a few rooms that were near each other, and it was that kind of vibe.

It was very grassroots, which on the one hand isn’t fancy, but on the other hand, it’s like a good vibe. And so this had that kind of vibe, which I really liked, and I kind of missed it.

Tammie:
And the Wi-Fi generally works in coworking spaces. And that was the thing—the Wi-Fi will hold up. You’re going to have tea and coffee and all those kinds of things. You’re going to have the functional things that you need from an event perspective.

And coworking spaces are friendly spaces—they’re all about, “Yes, come in and hang out with us.” So it’s a good vibe.

And the location was amazing. By the way, you know how the after-party ended up happening? That’s also thanks to the Italian community. There wasn’t really one that was organized, and then I was like, “Let’s organize that.”

So I said, “Elementor will sponsor it, but we need to find a space.” I don’t speak Italian, and we have a day to do it. How do you do that? Anyways, they were amazing. They got on the phone, blah, blah, blah, calling all these places. And then they found this space in that food hall.

Tammie:
And it was like the third floor or something.

Miriam:
This space just for us with a bartender for us. Oh my gosh, that was amazing how that worked out. And I really appreciate that they jumped on this and made it happen.

And I think because of the location also—that space was right there so we could do it there. So that was fun.

Tammie:
And that was also good. Quite often, in after-parties, you don’t get to have food with the alcohol. So people were able to go and get food. And to explain, the food hall had anyone could get any food, so people weren’t limited.

Miriam:
Yes, I was able to get food.

Tammie:
But that’s also really important. I think it felt really inclusive and welcoming. And often that’s something you worry about when you go to a smaller WordCamp—is it going to be as inclusive as some of the bigger ones?

But the answer is yes, it is going to be. So I think for me, I would, without doubt, go to something like that again because I just learned so much.

I kind of went back, and I’m like, “Okay, one of my Christmas projects—” Weird. Over the holidays, I always have a code project. I’m not weird—I think most people that make products…

Miriam:
I appreciate that. It sounds fun.

Tammie:
Over holidays, there is some tech project, and one of them is with data views again. Just like, “Okay, I now want to take that knowledge and work on it.”

So that’s a question—

Miriam:
By the way, I want to say that. So at the end of the conference, the last closing session was this open conversation. I really appreciated everything that you said there.

Tammie:
Oh, thank you.

Miriam:
I was hanging on to every word. So I just want to say that.

Tammie:
Oh, thank you. Thank you for being a vocal part of that conversation. You certainly bring so much context, experience, and perspective, and it was really good to hear what you had to say.

Tammie:
I really appreciated that. Everyone—just so to give context to everyone—there was space at the end to just talk about anything to do with the project but also feelings.

It didn’t get too much—we didn’t need to go hug some teddies. There was none of that that needed to happen. But it was just people were like, “How do I get started? What are my problems? Where are my hitches? What do I need to do?”

And I think sometimes if you are a full-time contributor, you don’t see this side or that side. And it was a great perspective. There were so many different people—there were part-time people, there were full-time contributors, there were people who have been, and people who haven’t been—and all sides got to have those spaces.

I’m lucky—I can wear different hats. But thank you. I found it a really welcoming space to just sit down again.

I think because there weren’t any videos, there was just a space where people could just be themselves and have a conversation.

And again, we just spent two days together. I’m such a believer—if you sit down and eat food with people, they’re people.

Miriam:
Yep.

Tammie:
That’s something you don’t get to do with these big WordCamps. You tend to have dinner with the people that you have business with, or honestly now, or you are doing it with people that beforehand you’ve been like, “Oh, I need to go to this meal or I need to make contact with these people because this is the only time I’m going to be in their area to make contact with them.”

But these were people that we maybe wouldn’t have encountered or wouldn’t have gotten to sit around with. And that’s incredible to be able to do that.

Miriam:
Yeah, I agree.

Miriam:
Well, I found that ending conversation interesting because I feel like we often talk at the project—we personify it—and there are people who are dealing with it. And people brought up really interesting challenges or pain points that they had.

Then it was an opportunity for people to say, “Hey, did you try this?” or “You could try this,” or whatever. Or people could be like, “Yeah, actually, the closing of the tickets thing—that is something that we should maybe do as a collective. Let’s talk about that.”

And people raised different ideas and perspectives. You don’t want to close too many tickets; you want to take things into consideration. You want to have communication. All of that happened in that conversation.

When does that ever happen, really? It happens in writing on Make WordPress blog posts, but there’s something very different about people sitting in a room together who are objective. And what I mean by objective is they’re all this random mix.

It’s like they didn’t all come because they’re part of some organization or company or anything like that. It’s just random. And so they’re all bringing their random perspectives and talking randomly about things that affect everybody.

So I think that is very effective, and maybe we want to see more of that kind of conversation happen.

Tammie:
You just raised a really good point because, since the other community summit—loved it, felt incredibly privileged to go—I can’t say that word, privileged, to go to it—but it’s selected, right? It’s still selected.

And this was just like, if you just shook up the community, and it was a random collection of people that just happened to be in that space. So there wasn’t a selection of people to go there—they just happened to be in the room to have those conversations.

And that’s really, really important, that we get to have those spaces. Maybe we just need less recording and just more spaces at the ends of some of these events where people just sit around.

Lots of people brought coffee to that and just sat for an hour. Actually, it was an hour and a half, wasn’t it? Because halfway through my body went, “I need a break.”

So it was over an hour. But that was the thing—to get everybody at the end of a WordCamp… Normally at the end of a WordCamp, everyone’s just like—the last hour and a half, people are out of the building. They’re just gone. Or their brains are not functioning anymore.

My brain’s barely functioning at the end. Or they’re on TikTok with headphones or looking at animals—I dunno. But people leave early quite a lot.

But most people were in that room, and they were sitting around, and they were like, “Okay, right, we’ve got our coffee. We’re going to sit around and have this conversation.”

And there was no agenda. It was just like, “Okay, we’re all in this space. Let’s all respect each other as human beings and have…” Just to kind of phrase it—no grumpy conversations were had. It wasn’t that.

It was more just like, “Okay, this is what I’m feeling, but how do I solve it? How do I progress from it?” And there was always that approach.

It’s like, “I am having this, but I want to not feel this. I want to now progress from that.”

Miriam:
It wasn’t complaining for the sake of complaining.

Tammie:
No, there wasn’t. There wasn’t whinging. I love that word.

Miriam:
This word.

Tammie:
We have many words for moaning, but there—it was always with a, “This is what I’m feeling, but I want to move out of it, and I want to move into action.”

Which—when someone says that to you, you cannot help but be positive and have an action. You’ll be like, “Okay, well obviously we’re going to find a way through it with you.”

Miriam:
Yeah. Also, I do want to give humongous credit to the moderator.

Tammie:
Yes.

Miriam:
Wow. He did such a good job of that. Everyone’s like, “Sip.”

Tammie:
Yeah, exactly.

Miriam:
But eventually, he had patience and sensitivity, and eventually, conversations did happen, and they were productive.

And I found them very interesting—to hear people talk in a productive way about things that could be improved. Challenges—which is everything in life. That’s not a criticism of the project to say, “This could be done better,” or even, “I don’t like how this is being done.”

That’s fine because you’re coming from the perspective of, “I’m here for Core Days.” That’s the kind of self-selection, right, the top of the conference. But then after that, it’s random—anyone coming in who cares about the project. And that’s the perspective.

So I enjoyed that conversation. I enjoyed, like I said, your contribution to the conversation. Good job, moderator, and just—it was interesting.

Tammie:
Yeah. Oh, that’s a lot. So I guess my answer, if someone said, “Would I go again?” would be yes. What about you?

Miriam:
Oh yeah, I would definitely go again. I had such a good time. I think you mentioned that it had, I think you said, diversity or inclusiveness of a larger WordCamp.

I think it has something to do with it happening in a major city like Rome. So if they choose to do it in a different city, I think it should also be a major city. That will make it feel more inclusive.

Other than that, I would love to go again. If they did it in Rome again, I would be happy to go again. It was just good vibes. The Italian community is really fabulous. All the communities are fabulous.

So I’m just saying I was just there, so I enjoyed it. Yeah, I would go again.

Tammie:
And I think if anyone ever gets the opportunity, just go openly and don’t expect who’s going to be there.

I think that was the thing—I maybe twice checked the attendees. Normally for the big flagship ones, I’m like, “Okay, this person’s attending. This is my plan.” This time, I casually did, but not at all on the scale of normal.

And that was probably the best way to approach this type of event, I think. And that would be my recommendation for these types of events—just if they can keep that, the shortness as well. Yeah, it’s just a really powerful way.

Miriam:
I agree.

Tammie:
Well, thank you so much.

Miriam:
Thank you for talking to me about this. Oh, it was fun.