Blocks‑Based Design Meets WooCommerce Solutions

Kathy: Hey everyone, welcome to Woo Visions. I’m Kathy Zant and I’m here with my friend, my partner in Kadence, The Kadence Beat is taking over Woo Visions this week. Exciting, isn’t it?

Ben: Yeah, absolutely.

Getting into WordPress and blocks

Kathy: Thanks for joining in Ben. If for those who do not know Ben, he is the founder of Kadence WP. You were the first person to really do some innovative stuff with blocks with WordPress. Can I ask you to, because I know little bits of the story of how you got involved with WordPress and blocks, but I’d love to share that story with everybody listening to Woo Visions.

Ben: Yeah, sure. So I think, I can’t even remember what year it was, but when Gutenberg was still a plugin, not in core, there was a whole year pre to five release where a lot of negativity about Gutenberg and is this really the future that WordPress should be heading in, and in January, February, that year, I was probably in that camp of I don’t know if this is right. And then just like it just does for a lot of people, like finally the block editor clicked and I was like, “Okay, I can see how this can work.” And what the constraints that the Gutenberg team had to deal with in terms of backward compatibility and being able to pull in raw HTML into a block editing experiences, I wouldn’t want to have to be the one to have to figure all that out, right? But essentially, I came in and I was like, “Okay, so WordPress is making a content editor. You’re going to be able to make content, but not like a page builder, but could this be a page builder?”

And so that kind of exploration into if it could be a page builder, being able to marry the two and allowing users to escape the heavy load of a page builder, but still being able to create really dynamic layouts was appealing to me as a creator as well as just something I thought, this could really happen. So yeah, I developed Kadence Blocks and released it pre the 5.0 release, so before Gutenberg was part of core, those were crazy times. At that point, I had to support the Gutenberg plugin because that’s how you could enable Kadence Blocks, which meant that the development pace of Gutenberg plugin and the way that, at the time too, it was just a lot easier to break things then because there’s a lot less users on it and so yeah, I think in those early days, I rewrote Kadence Blocks a couple times because things would completely change and I’d be like, “Oh no, this isn’t going to work.”

So one of the main focuses I had was on the row layout potential, I was like, how do we make columns and how do we make those columns like movable? The core column option at the time was extremely limited, you basically could choose your columns and that’s it, and you couldn’t tell that anything. And I think one thing that still is there with core is that, and they haven’t gone into it all, is the ability to change settings based on screen size. And so that was, to me, a key missing part of every block and everything, if you’re going to create settings. And so I started to really try to approach Kadence Blocks as I want to build a design tool for Gutenberg so that people can use this as a full page building experience in terms of being able to create whatever you want.

Kathy: So with Gutenberg not yet being in core and basically to install Kadence Blocks, you had to have Gutenberg plugin as well. How many users did you actually have playing with it then?

Ben: Pretty quickly I had a lot, part of it was because I had been building themes and plugins already. So I had a decent user base that was using Kadence products at the time, this would’ve been our Virtue theme and our Ascend theme. And so it was really easy for me to push things to users and let them play with it and try it. So I feel like even in the early days, there was quite a lot of users on Kadence Blocks and it’s all relative. Right at the time, quite a lot of users meant 5,000 because no one was in Gutenberg yet. Now, quite a lot of users means 200,000. So it’s different, but sure yeah, I think that was like had I not had any customer base, user base to be able to say, “Hey try this out.” That would’ve made it a lot harder to get it adapted and as well, to get the feedback that I needed to be like, “Okay, what’s helpful and what’s not.”

Kadence blocks, the the Kadence theme

Kathy: Sure now a lot of people think of Kadence is the theme, but Kadence Blocks actually came first?

Ben: It did. Yeah. It came first and to be fair, I had themes when I released Kadence Blocks, but those themes were all built pre the Gutenberg era let’s say. My hybrid theme, it’s built for the Gutenberg era and the plan for it, the roadmap for it is it’ll carry through to the full site editing era. So it’ll be the universal theme that allows you to go full site editing if you want to. I think right now, I tell them most people don’t, but if that’s really what you want to dive into, that’ll be something worth coming down the road. It’s like we’ll be using that theme so you won’t have to switch, you’ll be able to stay on.

Bringing a new product to the community via a WordCampUS

Kathy: Gotcha. Okay. And you brought Kadence to WordCamp US in 2019, that was the one in St. Louis, is that the first time that you brought it to the wider community?

Ben: Yeah, I decided to sponsor. So I had a little table like a, just a two foot, enough room for just a laptop and had a little banner and yeah, it was good. I got a good placement. I didn’t know that how much that would matter, but I got put close to Give and Give gets a lot of traffic to their booth and I got put close to Local by Flywheel, and so there would be a line for those two and so then I was right there and people were like, “Oh. Well, what’s Kadence Blocks?” And so yeah, it was really important, I think, for people out there, it’s a big cost to go to these events and be a sponsor, it was like a huge cost. And at the size of Kadence at the time, it was like, this is all of our money, all of our excess is going into doing this, but the key being able to meet people and find those relationships and partnerships, that’s huge. It was a good conference for Kadence.

I think what was funny is we’re always listening to feedback and Hannah was with me at the conference and so the most common thing after we showed people, they’d be like, “What does it cost?” We’re like, “Well, Kadence Blocks is free.” And then, “Well, what’s your pro version cost?” And we’d tell them the price and they were always like, “It needs to be more money.” That was our most common feedback is you’re selling it too cheap. And so that made us come back from that feeling really good, like, “Hey, we’ve got something that really could help people and has a lot of potential.”

Kathy: Definitely. And it’s, from what I’ve seen in my short time working with Kadence, every time I talk to someone new about Kadence, they are excited, there is a light in their eyes, they see the potential because a lot of the people that I know in WordPress are people who have been using it for a very long time. They have been around, they’ve been to WordCamp since like 2015, right? And so they want to make WordPress work. They don’t want to have big heavy plugins to do what they need to do, they want WordPress to be able to do what they need to do, and Kadence gives them that bridge towards a page builder kind of experience without having to have a dump truck carry the entire site to the end users.

Kadence doesn’t load anything on the front end of your website

Ben: Yeah. And I think to make that point, just if people are curious, one of the ways that we can say that that it’s so much lighter is that Kadence doesn’t load anything on the front end of your website if you’re not using it on a page. So it’s like, it’s that lean?. If you use one block, then all you’re loading is just whatever is needed for that one block. So it’s not like, yes, we have a bundle of blocks and there’s a lot of blocks in there and you can use a lot of things, but it’s all really lightweight and it’s all cut down to its pieces. So only the pieces that you’re using get loaded and that makes it way lighter than something like an Elementor or Divi or whatever.

Kathy: Gotcha. So with the new blocks that we have out, like the Ladi block, if you are using something with the Ladi block, but you’re not using the Google Maps block, Google Maps isn’t going to load. All of the logic that goes behind that just isn’t there on the front end.

Ben: Yep. Exactly. Yeah. Any CSS for styling and things like that, I mean, JavaScript for the forms block, that’s not going to load unless you’re using the forms block on the page. So yeah, it’s more progressive in that sense of like we’re not just loading a bunch of JavaScript libraries to say, if we ever need this, let’s have this library around. It’s more like on a block by block basis.

Why WooCommerce has been a primary focus for Ben

Kathy: Makes sense. Now, WooCommerce has been one of your primary areas of focus and I know you’ve been a web developer for and helped people get their sites up before you started building Kadence. And you have the WooCommerce Shop Kit, the Kadence Shop Kit plugin that all extends the functionality of WooCommerce. Why is it such a primary area of focus for Kadence? And what has led you to create Shop Kit and tools for shop owners?

Ben: Yeah, primarily it’s what I’m interested in. I want to build what I like and I got into web development by building online stores and my very first online store was BigCommerce and eventually, I moved that shop to WooCommerce because, well, a lot of reasons, but as I was building websites, I gravitated toward WordPress and WooCommerce, and then it was like, “Now I want to build the tools that I’m looking for, the things that I need for my projects or for my clients.” And that’s kind of what led. So I think I’ve always got a mind with that because it’s like what I’m using it for. I run a free dried food company with my brother, so we have a WooCommerce website. And so when I push out updates, sometimes there are updates that I’m like, I want that for my website.

And I think that being married the actual, like how people are going to use it is, to me, really important. I’m not developing new products from a view of not being able to see how people are going to use them or how it’s going to benefit. So yeah, I think the focus for me of Kadence theme being such a theme that’s designed to work with WooCommerce and even building extensions and Kadence Conversions, where it’s like, there’s a lot of things in there that works with WooCommerce intentionally is because that’s what I use too. I want these tools for me and I think that’s been a large part of the whole Kadence thing is I want these tools for me.

So, I’m full time with Kadence, right? Obviously, this is what I do and I still try to make sure I’m, every year, at least building one website on the side, so I just have that raw experience of starting from scratch and really saying like, “What tools are out there and how do I want to do this? And what’s the need?” So that way, I’m constantly creating my notes. We get a lot of feedback and that’s huge, it’s a big part of where we go as a brand, but just being able to see it too from the user standpoint is big for me.

A commitment to WooCommerce via Kadence Conversions

Kathy: Definitely. There’s something really raw about starting a new website from scratch and which tools are you going to make a commitment to, that is different than, “Okay, I’ve got this site that I’ve been running for five years, and I’m going to just change this.” Because you make a commitment with a plugin, you make a commitment to WooCommerce and then so many other things hang off of that commitment. So that initial decision is so important and can really change your mindset. So you’ve mentioned Kadence Conversions. Can you talk a little bit about what that does and what that offers?

Ben: Yeah. So Kadence Conversions is like a, it’s a popup, slide bar, banner tool, you can build it in Gutenberg and create a popup, create a banner, put whatever you want into it, whether it’s a subscribe form, whatever, but then the triggers for that can all be based on, you can say if this product is in the cart, then I want this banner to show or this slide-in to show, and that all can be related to what’s in your WooCommerce cart so that you can… And of course, you can have it specific to like, I only want this to show on the cart page, or only want this to show on this product page where you have a slide-in come in, and stuff like that. So then you’ve got tracking with it, you can see how well that’s converting, and then it works with our form blocks, so you can add subscribers to your mailing list or whatever.

Kathy: And Kadence Conversions, it’s built with blocks, you’re building with blocks, right? It’s not just its own world of development, it’s with the block editor, isn’t it?

Ben: Yeah. Correct. So there’s one master block, which is the conversion block and that’s the main block when you create a conversion custom post type, and then inside of that, all the nested blocks, you can put whatever you want into it. So yeah it can work with anything, you can put, just in the latest release, I put in support for Gravity Forms for example, because we have a lot of users who are like, “Hey, I want to use Gravity Forms in my conversion and I want to be able to track the goal and have that all sync.” So yeah.

Kathy: Great. And does that mean that the popups, the modals, the slide-ins, they all have the same speed benefits of using the block editor?

Ben: Yeah, exactly. So again, we’re only loading what it is you’re using in that. And then two, it’s super lightweight. So we’re talking about no jQuery or anything like that, it’s one file that’s going to basically handle the building or displaying of the popup or slide-in, and then the controls for setting the cookies, if you’re closing it out or adding in, you can connect it with Google Analytics so it’ll send an event to Analytics to say, “Hey, this happened, it was shown, or it converted,” and things like that.

Thanks to our Pod Friends PeachPay and Iconic

Blockifying the WooCommerce product page

Kathy: Gotcha. Very cool. Now in the Woo… God, I haven’t built anything with WooCommerce in a really long time, but when I was playing around with it, I noticed I’m not using blocks all of a sudden, I’m to using just the old fashion WordPress editor, but I’m really excited about blocks. What do you see going forward in the future of WooCommerce? Where blocks can be of greater service to shop owners?

Ben: Recently, WooCommerce on their dev blog, they put out a roadmap for quarter one, quarter two of this year, and where it’s heading, in their own words. They’re very much wanting to build the ability to template out WooCommerce in full site editing as well as potentially building, they put this in the later category, but blockifying the single product, so that way you could build a single product template with blocks. There’s not a whole lot on how this would actually work in the admin side and if you’re listening, anyone at WooCommerce, I would very much suggest that don’t build that in blocks. I think when you go to the single product page, I think that should be more of a data collection, not a design experience. And the block editor, to me, is more of a design experience.

So I think when you edit a product, what they need to do, like what they did with WooCommerce admin, where they basically said, “Hey, our reporting and all this stuff, it needs to be updated and it needs to start using react and all that stuff.” If they could do that with the single product editing experience, it needs a full rewrite. Let’s actually get out of the classic editor even, let’s just create our own input for how we’re going to collect data on products because products can be complicated, you get into variations and all that stuff, if they improve all of that and then create a Gutenberg experience, and this is what you see in the roadmap where you can create templates, that you can then assign to products for how it’s going to be designed, I think that makes the most sense and even on my part, one thing we’re building is the ability to template out WooCommerce pages, so we’re going to creating those blocks. But I think the common complaint, if there’s complaints for WooCommerce, is it’s complicated to get started.

And being able to add a product, you get into this experience, it’s fairly overwhelming. And so I think if they took the time to really rebuild the admin side of the product and how you’re going to collect data on a individual product in a React interface, that’s like super quick, I think that, to me, that’s what I’d love to see WooCommerce work on next.

Kathy: That makes a lot of sense, but it’s almost like when you’re entering in product data, it uses a different part of your brain than when you are displaying it, it uses the creative part of your brain. So asking a user to live in those both areas of logic and variations and all of the data parts of things, and then move into the creative side at the same time, that’s asking a lot of a user, isn’t it?

Ben: Well, yeah. And it’s also makes it a tricky to find stuff. If you drop into Gutenberg on a product page, where do I set the inventory? Like then do I have to scroll below that? And now I’ve got this funky two worlds, like Gutenberg editor on top and then all of the metadata below, which I don’t think is a very amazing experience. And so, to me, I’m hopeful that they go that way, I think that would just, in my mind, make a lot of sense, but I think templating for WooCommerce is huge because then you have the flip side of like, “Hey, I want to control how this product looks on the front end.” And so eventually, it looks like WooCommerce is going to solve that through full site editing at some point later being what’s on their blog and Kadence is also going to do it in Shop Kit in terms of being able to template out, building those templates in Gutenberg with custom blocks that just pull in the pieces that you need for your product page.

Kathy: Right. And just seeing what you’ve done with templating for Kadence elements, which is part of the Kadence theme, you’re going to take a lot of that same kind of logic I am imagining into Shop Kit. So you could conceivably have five different product templates that could apply to various products based on product type or maybe you have all shirts and they would need to lay out in a certain way versus all of the pants in your shop type of thing. Is that kind of what you’re envisioning?

Ben: Yeah. Exactly. And even more control than that, where you could get in and say like, “Hey, I want to do something really funky with this product page, in just this one. I want to basically make a product that’s a landing page. So I’m going to be really not even thinking about it so much as a template as I’m building this product page.” You could do it on that level or you could do it on, “I want to apply to every product to my shop, or I want it to apply to just a category of products or different things like that.”

Kathy: Oh, wow. That really opens up a lot because you could have like a whole shopping cart kind of experience with all of those layouts. And then let’s say you wanted to do a campaign for a specific product that’s really hot and you wanted to do ads towards it, Instagram, sending everybody to just that particular landing page where just that one particular product is being marketed and it doesn’t have anything else to do with your cart that might be showing in a different way?

Ben: Yeah.

The advantages WooCommerce has over the eCommerce platforms

Kathy: Okay. That’s pretty cool. So you’re seeing a lot of advantages to using WooCommerce, obviously, you’re putting a lot into that. What do you see with WooCommerce that has advantages over other platforms?

Ben: To me, far and away, the most obvious advantage is price, it’s free. And I think when people get away from that, comparing WooCommerce and Shopify as apples to apples, and Shopify, even in their lowest plan, is 30 bucks a month. Now, that does include hosting, I get it, they’re bundling it all together and that’s a real convenience factor. I go into one thing, I pay one thing, and I’m done. But I think that means you’re then stuck in that one thing and being able to build how you want, control what kind of server you need based on how much sales you’re getting, I mean, you can build a WooCommerce shop for next to nothing. If you just want to get started on a cheap post and put in a caching plugin, that’s free. There’s a lot that can be done for nothing or next to nothing in WooCommerce.

And so I think in terms of getting started, there’s an easy on rep where it doesn’t cost you much, maybe a little bit of time to learn it. I’ve played around with Shopify, I’m not like, “Oh my gosh, Shopify has really figured out how to make a complicated thing, like an online store, super easy.” Like no, it’s got a learning curve too. There’s some things about it that is maybe more intuitive or at least the fact that they control the entire environment, whereas WooCommerce is built into WordPress. And so you’ve got multiple things happening, but then there’s also a lot of power in that like blogging inside of Shopify is just a tiny text box, that’s it. You can make things bold and change… There’s no true content creation experience for blogging in Shopify.

You can build a template and then apply it to a single page and that’s how you can create custom pages in Shopify, but that is a very wonky experience. So there’s a lot of people that are WooCommerce haters and I’m like, building eCommerce is in itself complicated. I feel like WooCommerce is far in the way, so much better in that. You have control and what you want to do is limitless. You can do anything in WooCommerce. You’re not limited to a platform that’s closed. Your data is yours. You own it.

And you can do whatever you want with it. To me, there’s no comparison out there. For someone even getting started, okay, so maybe you have to watch a few more WooCommerce tutorials than you would Shopify tutorials to get in, it’s still where I would recommend anybody start because there’s a million plugins to extend WooCommerce and a lot of them are way cheaper than Shopify plugins. I’ve heard that argument, it’s like, “Well, you pay for WooCommerce through the WooCommerce store.” And it’s like, well, unlike Shopify, which has its own closed app experience, you’re dealing with a decentralized app experience for WooCommerce where there’s a lot of developers building and so it’s competitive and so the prices are low. And you can get so many custom things that are specific to you for much cheaper prices.

Open source and competitive advantages

Kathy: Sure. And eCommerce, I think the online world is still evolving and that there’s still new ways of connecting with customers. I don’t think it’s a mature space by any means there’s still innovation that’s happening and I have the sense that innovation is happening more in the open source space, because it’s so much easier for people to get involved in it. There’s not this behemoth of Shopify dictating what plugins can and can’t be out there. You can go buy WooCommerce plugins that aren’t necessarily in the repo, there’s so much more that can be done. Do you think that more innovation happens in the open source space with WooCommerce and does that give shop owners a competitive advantage?

Ben: I think WooCommerce shop owners have a competitive advantage in that, they can implement things easier and cheaper, and I think definitely, there’s a lot more development happening. As an overall scale, there’s more developers that seem to be building stuff for WooCommerce. So yeah, I think that’s a big advantage. Shopify is a for-profit business and so they have a lot of devs and I’m sure they’re doing a lot of really cool stuff and I don’t want to minimize that or say, “No.” I’m sure they’re doing a lot of cool stuff and they have a lot of cool plans for the future, but I think that there’s a lot as well, and I think when you get into progressive apps and stuff like that, I think that there’s a lot of potential for more that you’ll just be able to implement in WooCommerce because people are building for it. To me, it’s like where I want to live, because I’m a dev, so obviously if there’s something out there that I want to make or that it isn’t made, I can just make it.

But I think that store owners should realize if there’s something you want to pay for, then there’s likely someone who wants to make it for you. And it’s not about having to pay huge amounts as much as like, if it’s a good idea, there’s going to be people who want to make the product in WooCommerce. And because WooCommerce is so extendable and so easy to manipulate and change and innovate with that, I just think it’s far away a better platform.

Kathy: Yeah, and that definitely, with giving that type of innovation to store owners, it creates better experiences for shoppers as well because that’s the ultimate goal of a shop owner is to make a better experience that leads to a better conversion and a better sale and better connections with customers.

Ben: Yeah. Absolutely. And I think Shopify has done some stuff like their check out is now being basically implemented everywhere because it’s like, oh, they found something that seems to be working really well, but what’s nice is you can implement that in WooCommerce, or if you want to experiment with other ways to check out, or the checkout needs to be really paired down to your product, you have that control where it just a lot harder in a system and here we are picking on Shopify, Wix or whatever system you want to talk about. Obviously, there’s not just one, I would say, it’s definitely the most fastest growing by far.

Etsy fees having gone up and thoughts on that

Kathy: You know who else gets a lot of press? I love my segues. Etsy. Have you seen hashtag Etsy strike that has been going on. Have you been watching this at all?

Ben: I haven’t. I’ve heard about it for sure. I haven’t seen too much on it, just that knew it was happening.

Kathy: Yeah. I’ve seen some crazy stuff on Twitter with this Etsy strike. So it started, I believe, because Etsy had hiked their fees to sellers. So it went from like 3% to six something percent. And then I saw this one thread where Etsy accounting, it’s tax time here in the United States as well, and so the seller had turned in all of their accounting information and downloaded all the reports from Etsy and everything and the accounting was not lining up, and there’s this big thread on Twitter somewhere about that, but I’m watching it saying come to WooCommerce, come to open source.

Because you’re building a business and there’s so many creative people who are just like, “I don’t want to be involved in running the store. I don’t want to be involved in the coding. I don’t want to do any of that stuff. Just make it easy for me, plus there’s the whole network of searchability and Etsy,” and things like that, but they’re such a trade off and I think that trade off is harder on the sellers, harder on the customers even, for very little benefit. What do you think about all of this?

Ben: Yeah, definitely I feel like Etsy has a place because just like Amazon people go to Etsy and search. There’s only a few places that people don’t go to Google to search and Amazon finally got that and Etsy’s one as well, people go there and search. And so that is a powerful thing to get sales and get traffic. I do think, in general, it’s a huge trade off because now you are married to that and your whole business plan depends on that, and so if you’re starting out and you’re like, “Well, I’m choosing Etsy because need that.” I get it, but I think you want to be building a long term strategy of, “I need to figure out how to get into Google. I need to figure out how to get my product into Google. If I ever want this to become more than the hobby that makes me no money.”

And I think there are people in Etsy that just want a hobby that makes them no money, but if you want the hobby to eventually make you money, I think you have to figure out a way to get off, to have a business plan in place that doesn’t depend on Etsy, at least long term. And [inaudible 00:32:38], there’s people that have made that work for them, and that’s great, but I don’t think that’s the majority and maybe there’s space for an op open source craft search website that pools in and you can send your products info to, but not sell on there, something like that.

Maybe there’s someone out there that’s like, “Hey, this is a good time to try to start that and that’s a good idea.” But I think in general, for a lot of the people who are shop owners and their store on Etsy, I would say, “You want to be working toward getting off of that platform so that you can own it. And not only will you make more money because you’re not paying platform fees, but you can also like build to grow in a different way.”

Kathy: And create more services and more content that really connects with users that may buy your products and really build your empire and your own land rather than on Etsy’s rented land, so to speak.

Thoughts on the future of eCommerce

Any future prognosticating that you might want to do about the future of eCommerce? Is there something that you’re seeing that shop owners or people who are developing for WooCommerce need to be aware of?

Ben: If you sell a product, especially if it’s shipped, you should be using Google Pay, Apple Pay. To me, I feel like that trend is here to where people just don’t want to enter their information anymore and they want that buffer, because I feel like that’s one thing, even Shopify really does a good job, their shop pay is impressive. So to me I see that as just the immediate, like that’s a trend you want to be a part of because it will immediately help conversions and just make people be like, “Oh. Done.” And I didn’t have to do anything and we’re all ordering online now on our phones. But yeah, I think me thinking out, it’s hard to guess what some of the VR stuff will do, I don’t know if we’ll ever truly experience the web that way, but maybe that’s coming.

I definitely see progressive web apps as being something that’s going to, to me, it’s the most immediate with iOS, I think it was 15.4.1 adding in the beta, for a lot of that, I could see over the next couple years that being like a thing that every shop needs to implement is progressive web app for their shop. If they don’t have a private app, not a private, but an app already in the App Store, which I think is going to be great because then you don’t have to manage an app in an App Store, you’ll just be able to use your website as an app and yeah.

Kathy: Smart. Yeah. Cool. Since we have you here, final question. I know you were working on Kadence Shop Kit, was it two [inaudible 00:36:04] coming out pretty soon? Can we get a quick down and dirty preview of what people can expect?

Ben: Yeah, being able to template out your product pages is like, that’s coming in that. So there’ll be like the templating and one thing with that plugin is it’s all modular. So what you enable is what will run on your store. So again, performance in mind, you’re not installing something, I think there’s 13 modules in it, and having to run all 13 if you don’t want to, but the admin is getting a revamp and there’s some different settings here and there, like the product gallery is getting improved, there’s some more settings around that, but I think the big thing will be templating inside of building custom templates for your shop page that you can apply essentially, conditionally, based on a lot of different things, including if you wanted to expire at a certain time or whatever, but that’ll be the big part of that release.

Kathy: Very exciting. Well that’s all the time we have. But if people want to know more about, I feel like I should be saying this since we work together, right? So I’m like marketing and so I feel like me asking you, where should people find out more about Kadence? I’m like, “That’s my job to tell you.” But where can people find out more about Kadence, about you? I know you’re not big on social media, but where should people follow along?

Ben: Yeah, obviously, Kadencewp.com is where you can find us and products. Facebook group would be a place that you’re going to probably, as far as like where I would post and stuff, that’s going to be the one that you get the most. Our Facebook group is where I would recommend if you want to act with me in particular, you can tag me there, not every time, but usually I’ll see it. And obviously, I can’t promise to respond every time. Where you can get a response from me for sure is our website, through our support forums, I’m in there every day. So definitely value your feedback and things like that.

Kathy: Excellent. And I can say that Ben, of all the developers I’ve ever worked within my life, Ben is the most customer focused person that I’ve ever seen. You are on what people are doing with Kadence and really responsive to what the community needs, what people need in order to not only make WordPress work better, but to make WooCommerce work better. And so I really appreciate the conversation today. Thanks for joining me, Ben.

Ben: Yeah. Thanks.