How Emerging Tech Is Shaping Web Design and Development

Brad: Hey, everybody. Welcome to our, I guess, first official Web Emerging Tech Show podcast here. I’m excited. We’ve had some precursor shows, if you’ve been following along, where we really did a deep dive or somewhat of a dive into crypto and some different areas of how that ties into WooCommerce and some different options that are available along with my co-hosts here, Kathy and Dave. What we’ve decided to do is actually continue this show, and we want to expand it beyond just crypto. While crypto is definitely something, and blockchain technology is something we’ll certainly talk about, we want to broaden the tent, we want a bigger tent, because there’s a lot of emerging technologies on the web out there right now and many that have all of us very excited. We’re not just talking crypto, but we want to talk crypto. We want to talk about blockchain. We want to talk about AI and things like that.

There’s so many cool things happening on the internet today. It’s getting people re-energized and excited in different areas, so we’re excited to dive in. This will be an intro show, if you will, to talk about how we’re thinking about tech, things that get us excited, different topics we might want to dig into, other guests we might want to have on the show. If this interests you and you’d like to join us, please do reach out, but let’s kick it off and go around the horn real quick.

What draws us to this topic?

I think a big question when you start talking about new technology, whether it’s on the web or otherwise, is why does that draw us, meaning, the three of us specifically, why are we interested in this? Why are we passionate about this? What is it about this new tech and learning new things that gets us excited?

I’ll pass it over to Kathy to kick it off for us.

Kathy: Ooh, exciting. Well, the thing that makes me most excited about emerging technologies are empowering people. It’s the thing I love about WordPress. It’s the thing I love about the Web. It’s the thing I love about blockchain and Bitcoin and everything is that it turns the table on this centralized method of we are the news and we’re going to tell you what to think about, and we’re going to tell you what to believe to putting the power of publishing into everyone’s hands, putting the power of transacting peer-to-peer into everyone’s hands so there aren’t centralized controls and that we put, I don’t know, I’m raising my fist up. Nobody on the podcast can see that, of course, but power to the people.

Those are the undercurrents of what makes me excited about emerging technology is anything that allows people to create more, to give people a voice, to give people more power in terms of how they buy things, how they transact with their neighbors, all of that kind of stuff is what is exciting to me. How about you, Dave?

Dave: Pleased to be back here with you. I was thinking about this. I think what inspired me to focus more of my time and attention on what’s coming next is a trip I took to South by Southwest and saw a lady called Amy Webb, who runs Future Today Institute, and she gave one of the keynotes, and she was just talking about all the different things that are coming down the pipeline, and these are technology trends well beyond just the Web. They go out through biotech and robotics and all sorts of things, which I guess everything is connected through the internet these days, but really far away in the web of what humans do, and I just realized how excited I was by what she was saying, just the broad spectrum of human ambition and endeavor.

It’s easy to get carried away with the doom and gloom and the bad news that’s in every news cycle, and I really feel like looking at future tech, whilst there are always dystopian takes and troubling aspects to them, it really captures, for me, one of the best bits about humanity, which is this drive that we have to try to do better, to innovate, to explore and to find solutions to things. I think there’s something beautiful about that, and there’s also something very compelling about the hope that it can give us. When we think about the problems that we have in the world today and the work that people are doing trying to solve them, it always gives us that feeling that there are solutions available. It breaks us outside of our here and now, our status quo and our assumptions, and opens our minds to what’s possible.

A friend of mine has a really nice quote about technology, which is that technology is only valuable in as much as it helps us spend more time together as people. That’s something that I think I’d like to try and use as a thread through at least my takes for these conversations because we don’t really have good ways to evaluate technology and its impact outside of GDP and profit and efficiency and productivity.

Now, what is it actually doing for us as people? Hopefully, I can bring a bit of a humane slant to things, although I do get carried away with all the shiny tech stuff as well, so you’ll have to hold me to account to that.

Brad: Those are some very elegant answers. Mine may be not as elegant. I don’t know. I like having AI bots and stuff to just generate silly poems and pictures of me riding a horse wearing some general’s outfit or something on a mountain. I don’t know. I’m kidding. I think, to both your point, anyone that’s in technology, I firmly believe the reason we’re in technology is because our personalities are very curious. We’re like that. We’re always curious, and it doesn’t mean you have to be always learning, everything that’s new, you have to learn.

It doesn’t necessarily mean that, but what it does mean to me is, and these are the type of people that I look for when I hire at my agency, is I want people that are hungry to learn. Whatever we’re doing today is not what we’re going to be doing tomorrow. You’re in a technology field and you’re not always trying to learn and see what’s coming and how could I potentially use that for myself or my clients or for just whatever I’m doing, you’re essentially going to get passed by, and technology’s going to leave you.

It changes so quick, so I think, for me, I’m just always endlessly curious and hungry to learn more and, when new stuff emerges, when Web3, quote, unquote, the Web3 world kicked off a few years ago, it was really fascinating to me because it felt like a little bit of the wild west of the old internet days that the three of us grew up on when there weren’t a lot of rules and there wasn’t a lot of structure to how we found stuff online and it wasn’t anything like what we have today. It felt like that, and we were all learning together, in a sense, and publicly and very publicly. Things were working and some things weren’t working. It felt like a new kind of revolution. I had a little bit of the feeling of the Web2 push when social media and user-generated content was all the rage. I got very excited about that. It’s right around the time I jumped ship from working for someone to starting my own company.

I’m curious about technology. I always have been. I like to open up computers. I like to poke around. I like to open up software and poke around, and that’s how I got to where I’m at today. For me, I just love exploring new things, and there’s so much of it right now, and that’s really what this show is going to be focused on, which is talking about some of this stuff and talking about things we’re seeing, what interesting projects are out there, especially in the AI front. That’s like the new hotness just in the past month or two. It’s all AI is all we’re hearing. There’s so many cool things coming out especially in the WordPress space.

We’re really looking forward to digging into that, getting some of these individuals on that can talk about their side projects or premium projects or whatever and how this all integrates back into the world of WordPress and WooCommerce and how we can integrate this stuff, because the game is changing. The game is definitely changing, and we need to figure out together what that means, and that’s why we’re curious and want to keep learning. So, looking forward to jumping in.

Passkeys and security

I know one thing that caught my eye as I was thinking about this show and thinking about these type of topics, WordCamps are starting to come back, and I know I’m looking forward to WordCamp Phoenix at the end of the month. Kathy is going to be speaking, so I’m looking forward to seeing Kathy in person, but what struck me, and I want to… and I’m pitching this over to you, Kathy. If you go to the WordCamp Phoenix website and you actually look at the schedule of topics, it is so different than what you would’ve saw five years ago, just a few years. There are topics on here you never would’ve seen. Kathy’s talking about passkeys, which I’ll let you touch on that. There’s also a presentation on AI. There’s a presentation on blockchain. There’s all these future tech presentations that even, literally, just a couple of years ago nobody would know what that meant or even be interested in hearing about it.

Kathy, maybe… Well, one, I would love to hear more about this passkeys presentation, but, I mean, how cool is that? What we’re talking about is actually showing up at WordCamps already and just as WordCamps are starting to make a comeback.

Kathy: Yeah. It’s really a testament. Well, I lived in Phoenix for a couple of years and was part of the organizing committee for WordCamp Phoenix back in the day when we had them, we had WordCamps, and it really is a testament to the team there that they really do have their finger on the pulse of what’s new and what’s innovative, and they are really trying to push the envelope in terms of really making this a cutting edge type of WordCamp. We’re not just talking about the difference between posts and pages. Obviously, there’s an audience for that. If you’re at a meetup and that’s a topic, go do it, but this is definitely one of those kind of WordCamps that attracts people from all over the world. There are people coming from Europe for WordCamp Phoenix, and so the team there, Carol Stambaugh, is the speaker leader, and she really sets the bar high for what the speakers are bringing and being a part of the speaker selection committee there for a couple of years. They have a very high standard for what goes on stage at WordCamp Phoenix.

I pitched a couple of talks. I wanted to really talk about Kadence Blocks because I think, what Kadence is doing and GeneratePress and some of the other block plugins are doing for Gutenberg and doing for building with WordPress with Blocks is really innovative and cool, but I guess my secondary topic is about passkeys and security and, having worn the security hat for a few years, that’s what they chose. I am more than happy to talk about it because, passwords, I don’t know if you guys have noticed, but they’re kind of broken. There’s billions of passwords that have been breached from sites ranging from everyone from Adobe’s systems to many different WordPress sites and-

Brad: LastPass recently, yep.

Kathy: … LastPass. Passwords get leaked. If you go to Have I Been Pwned?, you can see there’s a number up there, but it’s like billions of accounts.

Brad: I’m scared to visit that website. I don’t want to know if I’ve been pwned.

Kathy: Well, my take is, if you have been on the internet for the past five or 10 years, you’ve been pwned somewhere. One of your emails at least has ended up there.

Brad: Guaranteed.

Kathy: Some of your passwords have ended up there, too. So, my rule is 16 characters for a password now. 10 years ago, it was 10 characters for a password, and what am I going to do? In five years, is it going to be 70 characters for passwords? Passwords are just broken. User credentials are broken because of all these breaches, because of password databases that… You can go on GitHub and basically find password databases that you can use in your scripts to do a brute-force attack. So, there’s brute-force attacks, there’s phishing attacks where users are tricked into putting their credentials into something that looks like PayPal, but it’s not, those types of things.

Passkeys are the solution, well, are the solutions. It’s based on a standard called WebAuthn. FIDO Alliance and W3C are the two entities that have basically put this standard together. With things like biometrics and your fingerprint on your laptop or face ID, Windows Hello, there’s all these different technologies that are making it super simple to do things that you and I have probably done for a really long time with SSH, with that public-private key, PGP. Well, Bitcoin is basically a public-private key encryption, how your keys lock your wallet. That’s basically how it works.

Now, we’re bringing the same type of public-private key cryptography into user accounts for WordPress websites. Apple is doing a lot. If you go into the apple.com store and you’re buying something and you’re using your fingerprint to log in, that’s passkeys there. The passkeys are now coming to our phones, whether you’re using iOS or Android, and it’s just a new way of authenticating that someone is who they are. I think the stats are 28% of people actually use two-factor authentication, which is just a Band-Aid on the password problem, the authentication problem.

Anyway, there in a nutshell is what I’m going to be talking about. I’ll dive into the password problem, where we are today with it, and what we should be doing today with our passwords and what’s coming down the pike with passkeys for everyone, and there’s Google, Apple, Microsoft. I think PayPal is implementing it. All of the major password managers are implementing passkeys as well, so it’s coming, and it’s something that we need to be aware of and jump on as a way to protect ourselves going forward.

Brad: Yeah. The number one thing around topics like this is education. There’s going to be a number of people at WordCamp Phoenix that have no idea what a passkey is, and I hope they sit in on your presentation and learn at a high level because I know, presentations, you’re not going to walk out of an expert, but at least they get a feeler for what passkeys are, where they might want to look into those and just how they work in general.

I mean, you mentioned two-factor authentication and, you’re right, it’s better than nothing. It’s not the end-all-be-all fix for all situations, but just take a few years ago, only the tech nerds like us knew what that meant and how to set it up and were using it, but now people like my dad are setting up two-factor auth with text messages on his phone just to make sure his Facebook doesn’t get hacked or compromised. While it’s not the end-all-be-all security solution, it’s become more common and more prominent to where even less tech-savvy individuals are somewhat familiar with it on a very basic level, but at least they’re doing a little bit more. What was the stat? You said 25 or 28%. I mean, we’re talking not even one out of three people.

Kathy: Yeah, well, they’re not fun. I’ve been in security for a while. I’ve seen some things. I’ve been on incident response for some fairly large hacks, and they start with mis- or reused passwords or very weak passwords, and it can compromise a lot just from poor password use. I’ve seen it, and I still hate 2FA. I’m still just like, “Oh, come on, where’s the authenticator app?”

There was this research … It’s somewhere on my Twitters, but it is about how in the App Store there are so many copycat and rogue 2FA apps. Apps that are charging $40 for 2FA, apps that are sending information like the seeds back to a remote server, weird things like that. There’s even concerns with things like that, and passkey just solves all of that. I’m sure some hacker, some creative kid is going to figure out how to mess up all of our passkeys someday, but, right now, it’s the next-level security technology that we really need to jump on and quickly.

Thanks to our Pod Friend Avalara

Bringing emerging tech to WordCamps

Brad: Yeah. Going back to just the overall schedule, it’s great to see Phoenix. To your point, I’ve been to a number of WordCamp Phoenix events in the past, and it’s one of those top-notch communities and events. It really is one that stands out in the past that I’ve been to, that is one of the premier events in the US anyways. So, no surprise that they’re getting ahead of this technology trend. Thinking back 10 years ago, I remember my first introduction to responsive web design was at a WordCamp. That’s the first time I had actually seen it. The first time I’d really heard about it, understood what it was and then, from that, it just gave me enough nuggets of knowledge to go and say, “This is a game changer. We need to get ahead of this.”

Our clients didn’t know about it. Leads didn’t know about it. That’s the great thing about WordCamps and many of the organizers out there, they are looking at some of this future tech and they want to get leaders in the space or people that are curious to start sharing that because it’s going to change the game in different ways. We don’t really know how until… Hindsight is 2020, but we’re at the cusp of this. I have a feeling that AI presentation, blogging in the age of AI, is probably going to be a very packed one because that is, again, I mentioned very topical, and that one’s going to have a direct impact on not just the technology we’re building and how we’re building it, but also how people are going to use that technology, writing their content, inserting it in their content, using AI-generated images versus licensed images.

It really changes a lot of things and opens up even more questions about what you’re allowed to use or not use or what you should use or not use and plagiarism or not, all that stuff, but it’s just… That’s what fascinates us, the three of us, for sure. That’s why we get into this type of stuff.

David, switching over to some of the other things like blockchain, just even seeing the idea of a presentation about blockchain at a WordCamp, I mean, that’s pretty cool, right?

Dave: Yeah. There have been a few now, but it’s great to see other folks in the community or more and more folks in the community starting to think about this. I guess to your point, and nobody can know what the impact of these things is going to be. Our job is not one of prediction as much as preparation. The idea that we bring this stuff out into the community and we try and get people to at least be aware of it and think about it gives us as a community the best opportunity to prepare together for whatever those impacts, whatever opportunities might be.

I guess, why these tools are so compelling now is that they’ve become more and more powerful. Back in the day, the old WordCamp days, we were talking about how to build plugins and themes and how those tools could help people communicate online, to transact online in one way or another, to publish or to sell. As everything has become more capable, the impact of those tools and those technologies is now much more profound. We’re talking about things which, 15 years ago, Twitter is all about nerds posting what they had for breakfast, and last year it was a threat to democracy. It’s similar technologies, but-

Brad: I’m still posting my breakfast, for the record.

Dave: Yeah, those cheesesteaks.

Brad: Yeah, I’m like the violinists that are playing as the Titanic is sinking. “Look what I had for breakfast. Isn’t that great?”

Dave: Yeah. Well, maybe you’re a threat to democracy as well, Brad, with you with the cheese steak posting. We’re living through this incredible time. I come from a zoology degree background, and I think that maybe we are living through the first technological speciation event, a human that is connected to other humans with a smartphone. And then the internet is just like we have different qualities and characteristics, instant global communication, shared thinking, real time communication, infinite storage, all of these different things which are just different from humans without smartphone, without the internet. This is one of the most profound changes that humanity’s ever going to live through, and we’ve got the fortune of being here and watching it unfold. I don’t know how you can fail to be compelled by what’s happening to us as people. It’s crazy.

Brad: It is, you’re right. We’re right in the middle of it. And what’s interesting is being a dad with a young kid is I like to think when he’s older, when he’s out of school, what’s the landscape going to look like? It’s impossible to predict, it’s impossible. So, I talk to other parents and about concerns about online safety and stuff and TikTok and Instagram and all these apps, and I’m like, you know what? They’re not even going to be on those. It’s going to be something new. And it’s probably something that somebody started that was laid off from Twitter as one of these big tech companies.

So, we don’t even know what we need to be worried about yet if you have younger kids, which is crazy. But a lot of it is just getting it out there, educating, letting people experience it. One of the things I’m organizing is just a small group of individuals to create an NFT for attendees at WordCamp Phoenix, and we’re batting around ideas of how to do this, because what we want to do is get them into that world and say, “This is an NFT, and if you’ve never had one before, let’s help you set up.”

Dave: You could do parts, or you could think about using parts instead because they’re free. You can transfer them to Eth Main Net if you want.

Brad: That’s part of the conversation is how we want to structure it, whether we’re going to use something like that or what blockchain. I think Ethereum, even though there’s… Whatever, it’s number one. So that should be people’s first experience most likely. But the idea of being able to walk out of WordCamp and say, “Hey, I have an NFT that shows I was here.” That’s kind of cool, that’s kind of neat. If you have never experienced NFTs or worked with blockchain or anything, that’s kind of cool. So that’s why I want to organize it as a volunteer group, not official, and we’re going to contribute anything and everything we can back to the community. We’ll see what happens. Don’t hold me to it if for some reason doesn’t happen. We’re trying, but we’re on a clock here.

But it’s that type of stuff. And being in a community like WordPress where people just want to try things and do things and contribute back, I mean, it’s only going to help not only WordPress, but all these new technologies really start to get integrated in really interesting ways and how we work with WordPress and how we work with WooCommerce and these web technologies, the more experience we get. So, it’s cool to see this coming at conferences, more of it just because just talking about it, get it out there is going to get more people involved.

Kathy: And it’s going to help the people who are exposed to it, because who knows? Maybe you’re at WordCamp Phoenix and some kid comes and gets an NFT, and that sparks some creativity that leads to something else that empowers that kid to do something. I’d love seeing kids coming to WordCamps, especially WordCamp Phoenix, having a kid come in and see the next level thing. I mean, they’re the next generation. So I think one of my things with kids in technology is my daughter. She was 11th hour trying to do her finals, and I’m like, “Let me introduce you to your new friend, ChatGPT.” Let’s learn how to use this tool because it’s going to be a part of her life in the future. You can just see it happening. So, I really love the opportunity to show kids what potential exists with technology, because they’re going to see it with such a different fresh perspective. They’re going to surprise us, I think. So I’m really excited with what you’re doing with the NFTs at WordCamp Phoenix. It’ll be fun.

Brad: Yeah, I think so. I think it will be fun. We’ll see on the next show if it was fun or not. Narrator: It was not fun. No, it’ll be fun. It’ll be fine. But that’s why I’m excited for WordCamps to be back, because we’ve been at not really a hiatus, but certainly there’s only been a handful of WordCamps across the world, honestly, in the past few years with the Pandemic and for obvious reasons. So, they’re an important part of this community, and they’re an important part of us all growing in technology and learning together. And again, you can see it in Phoenix. I expect similar things at WordCamp US later in the year. I expect to see a lot of these newer emerging tech type of topics, which will have an even wider audience. Obviously, it being the flagship WordCamp in the United States.

WordCamp Europe, what is that in June? It’s on my birthday, actually, in June. I wish I could go. I don’t think that I will be though. Well, I’m sure we’ll see it. It’s cool to see. So if you’re out there and you have projects, if you want to hop on the show, we’d love to talk about it. We know there’s some interesting things happening out there. It’s early, but in the WordPress space, we’re seeing some beta products come out and some ChatGPT integrations and AI image generators that’ll insert right near content. All that stuff is super cool. It’s a game changer in different ways, and we’re figuring out together, but we want to talk to you, we want to see it. So definitely hit us up on Twitter, I guess. I don’t know what to tell people to find me at anymore. If Twitter’s still here tomorrow. But what else do you guys want to dig into as we just throw a wide net around the things we’re going to be talking about, and anything that’s caught your eye there as we’re putting it out to the community?

The technologies and reflecting on WooCommerce and WordPress

Dave: I just wanted to bring it back to WordPress and Woo, because when we’re talking about these other technologies, it’s easy to be not looking at those projects, not looking at that software. Sometimes you can feel like maybe there’s a gulf between those two. How do you get from one to the other? Or if I’m here, why should I care about there and vice versa? But I think the values of WordPress and WooCommerce and the open source context, which these projects and our community sits in, they’re important. People working together openly collaborating to give people the freedom to publish and the freedom to transact, to sell. And those values, that mission, is still really important.

I think what these other technologies do is that they change the context in which people are so they change what it means to have freedom to publish or freedom to transact. What do you want to transact with? What are the things which are stopping you having those freedoms? Those ideas are still valid, and we shouldn’t either lose sight of them or underestimate their importance and their power. They’re what has got us here and doing the same things might not get us there, but having the same values surely will.

So, I think something that I’ve spent a lot of time pondering is how do these values translate? How does the mission translate into these new paradigms as these technologies change the social context a lot more than like a theme or a plugin might have done before? How do we use this incredible community that we’ve built and enjoy and is important to so many people? First order, second order, third order impacts on the wellbeing of lots of people around the world, and how do we reimagine what that means and lean into that so that we stay relevant, we stay important, and we stay extending the number of people that benefit from that mission over time?

Because I don’t think that does change. People still need to be free to publish and to transact. And in some ways, the things which are threatening those freedoms now are more profound than they’ve ever been. They’re more challenging. And that’s one of the reasons I’m so into Web3 and crypto, is that I strongly believe that decentralization is just something that is very valuable on the spectrum of different options for people.

Passkeys are incredible. If you want to trust Apple, they’re an extremely trustworthy company, but we shouldn’t necessarily be required to trust a third party in order to participate in humanity, which is increasingly what the internet is. It should be permission-less, it should be open. And even if it’s not for everyone, the fact that you can stand up your own identity that you can off using the hardware wallet you carry with you, that you can have that freedom is really important. But it’s only a part of the mix. It’s not important if it doesn’t survive in the world of AI. It’s not important if it’s not… Anyway, I could go on, but you get the drift.

Brad: Yeah, if you could restate that. I’m actually trying to ask ChatGPT if they have thoughts on the matter. Are you going to destroy it? Please answer the question. So let’s wrap it up here. I know we’re going to continue the show. We hope you subscribe and listen. Again, if you’d like to join, please reach out, leave a comment, hit us up on Twitter. We’re pretty accessible. We’d love to have you on. Talk about what projects you might have, show some things off, dig into some future web tech stuff. So I guess let’s just, final thoughts. Go around the horn real quick and we’ll wrap up there. So, Kathy, what’s some final thoughts you have and maybe throw it out where people could find you online real quick?

Kathy: Yeah, you can find me online anywhere and pretty much everywhere. Kathy Zant. If there’s other Kathy Zant’s in the world, I apologize, I’ve taken all of the handles. I’m just really excited about some of the things that Dave was talking about in terms of decentralization and giving more power to people, giving more creative power to people, all of those kinds of things. And I am excited about all of the innovations happening in WordPress. I think it’s one of the most exciting times in WordPress right now, just going to call it. Some of the cool things that are happening with how we are empowering people to do things without ever having to touch a line of code. So I’m excited to talk about all those things.

Dave: Awesome. You can find me at DiviDovy, D-I-V-Y-D-O-V-Y, most places. Most of my accounts are private at the moment, but you can request to follow. If you got WordPress or Woo in your bio, I’m pretty sure to let you in. I guess I just wanted to leave folks with an idea of what they can expect from these conversations going forward, which is going to be some discussion like this, but it’s also going to be far more about what we’ve seen recently. So we’re going to pick out things that have caught our eye. We’re going to talk about why we found them interesting, and then we’re going to try to tie them back to that mission, those values, and our day-to-day context as well. So it’s not just going to be us waxing narrator, us philosophizing. We are going to be here helping you stay on top of all the crazy goodness and all the chaotic goodness and probably some chaotic badness that’s happening online. And hopefully we’ll have a bit of fun chatting that through. If you’re doing innovative stuff in the space, then come and help us decipher it.

Brad: Yeah, awesome. So of course, I’m Brad Williams, WilliamsBA across the socials. There are definitely more than one Brad Williams out there, but I’m the WordPress Brad Williams. Actually, there’s two WordPress brad Williams. WilliamsBA on Twitter, you’ll find me. But I’m excited too. I mean, Kathy, to your point, I think there’s so many opportunities with this new tech, all the things we’ve very high level touched on, and how that circles back to WordPress, whether you’re building sites for clients, whether you’re looking to get into the premium space of premium products, or maybe even grow the products that you have. There’s just so many opportunities between blocks and AI and blockchain and all this cool stuff that’s out there. So I’m excited to dig in, see what people are doing. Like you said, David, show off some cool projects, talk about lessons learned, the good, the bad, the ugly.

We’re all kind of learning together. We’re not going to have all the answers. And those are my favorite shows when I actually don’t know the answers and I’m talking because I want to learn more. Those are the best shows. So that’s really what we’re aiming to do here. So definitely reach out, we’re excited to keep the conversation going. I’m sure we’ll have endless amounts of things to talk about because the tech and web is changing at lightning pace right now. So it’s an exciting time to be on the web, to be in WordPress and everything. So for Kathy and Dave, I’m Brad Williams. Thanks for joining us on the WordPress Emerging Web Technology super-duper awesome show, and we’ll see you back here next time. Thanks everybody.