The Website Builder’s Guide to Sales Tax Compliance

Ronald: Welcome to another Do the Woo podcast. My name is Ronald, calling here from England and I work for WooCommerce. This time I’m joined not by one, but two other guests. They all have one thing in common, which is sales tax, and I guess it’s not paying it, but educating and supporting other folks like you, our listeners. So without further ado, I’m going to introduce you, Kate, and Roger. In fact, actually, if you introduce yourself first. So Kate, over to you.

Kate: Yeah, thanks so much Ronald. Thanks for having Roger and I here. Very excited to what I like to say, nerve out on sale tax compliance. So just to forewarn you, I might get a little carried away, so feel free to tell me to calm down if I’m a little overly excited about it. But yes, I’m Kate Bacholzky. I’m a sales executive at Avalara and I’ve been here for about three years and have been partners with Roger and his team.

Ronald: Roger.

Roger: Excellent. So to echo, Kate, thank you for having me. I’m excited to be here. My name is Roger Walker, I’m the director of e-commerce for americaneagle.com. I’ve been with American Eagle now for about six years, but I’ve been involved in e-commerce for the last 19 and I’ve seen a lot of changes in tax over the last 19 years. And Kate and I, again, we do have a kindred spirit when it comes to talking about e-commerce and how it applies to tax.

Ronald: Okay, so I’m going to take a step back here. So Avalara, what is Avalara? Is it a tax integration plugin? Just in short, what can our listeners expect from Avalara?

Kate: Yeah, sure. So Avalara at our core, we are a SaaS based compliance company and we’ve been around for almost 20 years. What most people know us for is our ability to calculate Dow tax accurately. We actually pride ourselves as compliance expert and we do all kinds of things that are related to Dow tax compliant, filing return, getting people registered to collect and managing all kinds of other aspects. And we are a global company. Ronald, I believe we have some offices kind near you over there as well.

Ronald: Yeah, I think it’s Brighton, isn’t it?

Kate: Mm-hmm(affirmative).

Roger: So Ronald, let me jump in really super quick on that because Avalara is, as Kate said, it’s a SaaS based platform, but from the agency perspective, Avalara is quite a bit more than that. It’s our partner in helping our clients solve their tax problems. So it provides a service, but tax is so complicated these days globally that you need an expert and that’s where Kate and the rest of the Avalara staff come in to play. They’re a power play for any agency to involve in a sales or implementation process.

Ronald: Yeah, let me pause you there for a moment. So tax is complicated. I’ve got here four terms that I picked up on and I assume, let’s assume I’m a business owner and I start diving into taxes and these four terms. And maybe one of you can just pick up on one of these and just give me a quick rundown what it is. So first one is e-invoicing.

Kate: Yeah, so e-invoicing much more of a popular term over where you are for sure, but it is making its way over to the US we project soon. So in a nutshell, e-invoice is electronic invoicing, which is a requirement in many countries now. And as I mentioned, we think that requirement will spread, which is essentially saying you have to have, as a seller, you have to have the ability to have a recording in essentially real time in some unique ways so that the government knows that their money is kind of coming and it’s on its way.

Ronald: Okay, great explanation actually. OSS one stop shop.

Kate: Yes. So one stop shop that is essentially the EU, the 27 EU country, it’s a way to sort of streamline the ability to allocate tax collected back to each individual country. If you register as one unit, you have a funding agent that has to be in present in that area. And then what happens is all the that and GST and tax that’s collected, you are paying one source and then it gets allocated out to the individual countries.

Ronald: Okay. Is there a threshold or is it right from zero or is there once you go over certain threshold you have to start paying out to a different country?

Kate: Basically, it depends on who you’re selling to and what you’re selling.

Ronald: Okay. Maybe stop there because that already there’s so much nuance to it.

Kate: At Avalara, what we should change our logo and it should be the orange Avalara and then underneath that it should say it depends. That is essentially the answer for every question.

Ronald: It’s an asterisk, right?

Kate: Yeah, it’s a constant aspect. Exactly.

Ronald: I’m not familiar with some of the US sales tax rules and laws and one term that I picked up on was the Wayfair ruling.

Roger: So the Wayfair tax ruling, this was a 2018 lawsuit filed by South Dakota vs Wayfair. And prior to 2018, if you wanted to do sales tax, in essence it was focused on wherever you had a physical presence. So if you had a physical presence in Illinois and you sold something to Ohio, you didn’t pay Ohio sales tax on that. Now obviously the state of South Dakota along with the rest of the states of the US had a problem with that. So they ended up taking it to the federal government and ended up at the Supreme Court and the Supreme Court agreed. From that was born a plethora of tax laws ultimately coming down with tax Nexuses. And in essence it established a state by state ruling of why you have to pay sales tax there and what those thresholds are.

Ronald: Great. So back to my persona as a UK seller, want to export to Europe, to the US, I think after hearing this first reaction would be just scream and run away. Because before I do anything, governments will know what I’m doing, what I’m selling, how much tax I should be owing them. And I guess this is where Avalara comes in where all of this is automated. And by the way, before I go in there, is there another term you want to throw in there or is there another country that we should highlight in this sort of deep dive?

Kate: No, I mean I think you brought up a good point, which is where you’re located selling into the US. So unfortunately a lot of companies that are not US based, they don’t realize that they still have a responsibility to follow the economic and physical nexus laws in the 45 states plus Washington DC and Puerto Rico and all these other places. And that’s really a good point to bring up is that everyone can be affected when you’re selling. And again, it’s not that you should not sell here, you just have to be aware, you have to be aware of the laws, the fact that they’re forever changing and you have to have a solution in place. And so hence Avalara of being able to be that solution.

Roger: Yeah. And once we get into implementation, again as an agency, we’re not going to know all the relevant tax laws, but what we as an agency need to do when we’re working on our implementation, we’re working on our sales is we need to identify who are the right people for these conversations. Typically our implementation stakeholders, they’re not the CFO, right? They’re not the ones dealing with the financial aspects of this. So it’s very important for us to go, are we talking to the right people about tax? By the way, here are some things to consider, especially in coming from outside the US or even within the US. Our tax brackets over here are so complicated that it’s insane. Kate, the other day you and I were talking and you mentioned the number of US law changes over the last year. I think that’s a good number to throw out there for folks.

Kate: Yeah, absolutely. So I think it was a 2021 statistic and I believe it’s something like 112,000 different tax rate changes across the US.

Ronald: Goodness.

Kate: That’s not even the taxability of your product. So some states tax Covid, other states do not. Then you’ve got New York that says only if it’s over a certain dollar amount does it become taxable. So there’s just so much variation to that and once you get a grasp on it and you’re like, oh I got it, I got it figured out, the next month it changes somewhere. So it’s very complicated.

Roger: This shouldn’t be seen as a scary thing though, right? It’s definitely we’re not talking about this to try and scare people. We want to make sure that we educate that there is complexities here. These are manageable complexities, extremely manageable complexities.

We just need to determine where in the implementation process we want to do this. Some folks are going to have these conversations, Kate’s going to have these conversations, the agency’s going to have these conversations and they’re still going to go, well I have X person in accounting and they’re going to handle it manually. A phrase that I’ve heard a lot just through my own education and coming up in e-commerce is everything has a cost associated with it. And not to steal Kate’s line, she mentioned this the other day, it also has an accuracy cost associated with it. So yes, you can have somebody deal with something manually, but is that really the best use of their time or is there more important things that they should be doing? Should we automate that? What is the cost offset of that automation and what is the accuracy offset? The person doing it manually, they may be prone to mistakes and the government, any government is not going to go, oh, that’s okay, you made a mistake, no problem. We all know that they’re pretty picky about those kind of things.

Ronald: That’s a really good point. So I’m making an assumption here that whoever’s listening to, it’s like, oh, well it doesn’t count for me. I’m too small. I’m just a small business doing this. And Roger, you just talked about accountancy departments and trained accountants that, or finance who manage this. Is there a minimum? What’s your advice? How big as a store in terms of turnover or number of countries you should start thinking about tax automation.

Kate: So really and truthfully, everyone, no matter how big or small. The most common misconception is I’m a small business, the government is not going to find me. Well guess what? The government doesn’t know that you’re small. They don’t know that you’re big, they don’t know. They know that you have a website now, you have put yourself out there. And so you’re just as high risk as anybody. Now there are certain industries that are a little bit more audit prone, manufacturers, construction, very complex things. They do a lot of things. Seen a lot of challenges. But retail it’s in the top floor. So it is really important that people don’t have that misconception and they should be agitated from the beginning just to help them understand. And so sometimes we have conversations and really they do have it in play. They’re not quite crossing thresholds where they have to get it set up, but in six months or a year they need to, they just need to be aware.

And like Roger mentioned earlier, it’s not meant to be scary. You just want to make sure that when you’re talking with your client and it comes to that conversation of tax, don’t brush past that, don’t just assume, oh yeah we’re good, we’re just in a home state of New Jersey or wherever and we’re doing fine, our accountant is handle it. Bring up accountant in and say listen, this is really complicated. We want to make sure we set you up for success. This is compliance. It’s really important and it shouldn’t be under you.

Roger: So as an agency, this is a superhero moment right here. As an agency you’re having these conversations with your partner, with your sales, with whomever, and it’s the perfect opportunity to go you know what guys? Tax is really complicated. But I have an expert. And maybe it sounds a little cheesy, but this is where we bring in folks from Avalara to help gauge some of that experience, leverage that experience and say, okay, well here’s what your tax liability is currently, here’s what you should plan on. Do you need automation? I’m always going to say yes. Kate is always going to say yes. Well actually Kate won’t always say yes, but let’s look at it from a realistic standpoint. As an agency you just took your credibility and you just yakked it up through the roof because you said, you know what, I have an expert who can help us with this.

Ronald: That’s a great point. And also just back on the cost, if you start early and six months down the line, you do hit those thresholds having to unravel what you’ve done in the last six months, whereas versus it’s already been happening in the background must be huge cost saving and I guess everybody’s in business to do well and better and keep growing. Something crossed my mind, which is digital services. And digital services does the same tax rules account for those, for example, selling subscriptions or music online and you sell these across the US and Europe?

Kate: Yeah, that’s a really good point. So that is, if you could pick five sort of hot topics, invoicing, you had mentioned that earlier is one, and I’d say the movement of digital taxation is probably also in that top five, maybe top three. So even things like advertising and marketing. So Maryland was the first state to pass the law that has a tax when it comes to promos and marketing things on your website and things like that. Luckily they’d sort of set some thresholds. So it is today affecting just really larger company currently, but that’s not to say that that won’t change and affect others. And that’s really what our engine does. So you pick an Avalara tax code that matches with what you sell. So if you are selling subscription and they are taxable or becoming taxable and things change down the road, we’re going to keep up with that if those changes occur on our end.

Roger: So I think Kate and I just had something come up, Avalara just isn’t about e-commerce either, right? We just had a implementation that we were working on together and that was the client’s impression. Well I only need Avalara for my e-commerce portion, but this particular client had a large offline business and Kate was able to educate the client that no, to meet your thresholds, they’re not just looking at e-commerce, they’re looking at you as a whole. Do you want to throw in on that one, Kate? You had a lot of good conversation with those folks.

Kate: Oh that’s such a good call out. So people and think about the audience of a web designer and what you listeners here are doing, you’re mostly talking with probably someone that kind of on the technology side. So they might not be aware of the financing. But that is exactly right. So one of the main reasons, especially if it’s implementing a website is new to the business, is a new channel for the business. It doesn’t just start then and move on. You have to address what had happened prior. So this particular a client, they’re based up in the east, northern east part of the United States and they were delivering manufacturing and delivering products with their own company vehicles into a neighboring state for 20 years and never collected tax in that, all those sales. So they have 20 years of historical liability that they need to take care of before.

And so what we want to do is, A, kind of do a deep dive analysis, make sure that you’re compliant and just educate them. They can’t ignore that, you’re the business, you can decide that, but certainly it’s our role to take a deep dive, find out what they’ve been doing historically and now as they’re adding this new channel of the business, to make sure that they stay compliant. And so one of the things our tax engine will do is they’ll track your economic nexus and actually alert people when they’re at 80% of a certain tax and jurisdiction threshold.

Roger: Yeah, let’s just say those were a lot of fun conversations when the client realized that.

Ronald: But Roger to your point and to your sales pitch, what you shared earlier, Avalara is a partner, isn’t it? They’re the experts. So examples like that, which you probably don’t think of as a freelancer, as an agency that certainly you connect your client, your business to a much wider possible problem because you just building a website, but actually guess what, you’re being dragged into a much bigger part of this. Let’s not make it always negative, but there’s additional solution that a tax sales, tax, VAT, et cetera, always ask, name it. You’re all now certainly become part of that.

Roger, I’m just going to go here with you for a moment. So as an agency, you’ve implemented Avalara into various stores. As a freelancer, how would I charter these uncharted waters? I’ve never done it. What’s the sort of conversation you should have? What should you be looking at in terms of implementation, time-wise, what are the different steps? And maybe sort of take a parallel route of a really simple store to have a bit more complex store that you’ve done in the past.

Roger: Even as a freelancer and I started as a freelancer way, way back, again, tax was a little bit less complex then. But even as a freelancer, you’re going to start off by asking some relevant questions. If it’s you, the company owner dealing with you, the freelancer, you’re not going to have a large tax team, you’re not going to have an accountant. Or if there is an accountant, they’re not going to understand e-commerce most likely. But we need to ask some questions. One, is there any sort of tax exemption? Tax exemption takes many different forms. To be honest, for these initial questions you can Google a lot of these and go what qualifies for tax exemptions? I’m going to put a disclaimer on that because Googling is not legal advice, so don’t take that as gospel.

But we need to ask a lot of these relevant questions to go, even a novice can understand how complex somebody’s tax is. From there, Avalara has a range of everything that’s going on. So even a freelancer can loop Avalara into this. Now if you’re only selling a hundred dollars of something online per month, there may be a little bit of pushback to go, do I really need this? But it doesn’t hurt to at least talk to somebody. So that’s at the small one, that’s the, let’s talk to somebody. Is this complex? Is it not complex? Do we have concerns? Yes, we always have concerns, let’s talk to somebody. And then we can make an educated decision from there.

In terms of implementation, implementation for Avalara, I’m not going to put some hour numbers on this because everybody estimates hours differently, but a smaller Avalara implementation is definitely manageable by a freelancer without months and months of time. Avalara does have services where they can help for their end of the implementation, makes it really easy.

Avalara also has tons of different plugins for all the popular platforms. So as a freelancer, I’m not going to say it’s plug and go, but it’s pretty close. For the more complex tax implementations, these are people who have got tariffs, they have tax exemptions, they have restricted products, the whole shooting match of tax complications globally. Then the very first thing we want to look at is do you have dedicated tax professionals? The answer is probably yes if they’re that complex.

And the very first thing we ought to do once we recognize that complexity is we need to take a step back because anything we say as an agency there is probably going to muddy the conversation. Our next step is what I mentioned previously, to put on our super hero cape and go, you know what, I have the folks who can help with this. And then immediately loop in Avalara. Same thing though, no matter the complexities, a lot of the implementation aspect for the major platforms is already done. There’s already connectors there, there’s already a lot. So it is not a super heavy lift from the implementation side. Now there’s exceptions to every rule, especially as you start talking customizations, but for the most part, Avalara from a development implementation standpoint is extremely easy to do.

Kate: Yeah, I’ll just chime in and just add a couple things there and Roger, you really did summarize it perfectly well. We have I think 1400 platforms that we have pre-built integration to. Most were built and are managed by our Avalara partners, but we some that Avalara built and maintain themselves. And so regardless of what platform, really 90, maybe 95% of the implementation is really done within your Avalara dashboard. And it’s basic things, picking tax code, telling us where you’re registered and things like that. There’s very rarely customization that is needed from a developer standpoint. Really, most of it is that API functionality is there and ready to go. So, I’ll just say back kind of commenting on that superhero comment, it really is a superhero when you refer, because you’re helping your customers take a proactive approach to compliance rather than reactive.

And I’ll add there too, as far as referral, Avalara, we go to market to our partners. So gosh, I was just in Chicago yesterday and texted Roger, I had a little bit of time to kill before getting on my plane, wanting to know if he wanted to hang out for a minute. Again, that’s the deepness of our partner network. So we do that and we offer anyone to become a referral partner. So if you are a freelancer and you are interested in making some commissions, you can actually get referral commissions or referring.

So certainly lots of opportunities there, but really that superhero cape and it’s just we don’t want you to try to vet the client. Don’t start asking them a million questions, where are you registered and this, that and the other. Just say, hey listen, we recommend you talk to the expert. I’m not an expert. I certainly don’t, when I go to the doctor, I certainly don’t try to make recommendation to the doctor to tell him to his other patients what to do. That’s not my thing. I let him or her do that. So yeah, we just want people to know that, let have that conversation.

Ronald: That’s incredible.

Roger: Back this up, just a couple steps too. Just a piece of anecdotal evidence here. I have a gentleman that I’ve known for many, many years. He has a small online business he was trying to get started. This is somebody I went to college with and he called me up and he said, “Hey, what do I have to do with tax?” We talked through it a little bit. I recommended that he go with Avalara and he was able to actually implement all of that himself. So he was able to get Avalara set up, obviously not very complex in terms of his tax requirements, but stripping out even the independent developer. He himself was able to set this up. Now granted he is a web professional, just more on the design side as opposed to the development side.

Ronald: I think that’s a very valuable thing you’ve shared because it shows to me or I’m putting the persona hat on of a freelancer that there is opportunity and not just opportunity to sell for Avalara to my customers, but actually call in the expert and have that relationship and connection and ask for advice. And I also have to say before this call, I searched the blocks and materials resources and it’s really very extensive, very in depth. And yeah, I think it’s incredible opportunity. But just to go a bit further into how accessible Avalara is, especially the WordPress and WooCommerce community, one thing I’ve noticed is your extensive sponsorship and WordCamp and also together with WooCommerce. How big of that is that in terms of your sort of policy and the way you do business to have that personal connection and actually meet the freelancers?

Kate: Sure, no, yeah, that’s great. I don’t know how they chose the bright orange, but we are all about the bright orange and we want to be seen. We want you to come to us. And so you mentioned word camp, we’ll be there. I think that’s the end of August in Maryland if I’m not mistaken. But yeah, we want people to come. We want people to ask questions. We want to have that face to face interaction where we can. We have a huge partner team. We have partner team upon partner team to educate and walk people through and find out if they want to become a referral or a technology partner or both, what that looks like. And we want you to ask questions and we want to provide information and help you grow, right?

Ronald: Yep. Yeah. Roger, how is that connection from a agency perspective when you see Avalara sponsor community events like this?

Roger: It actually is quite inspiring, honestly. Americaneagle.com does quite a bit of quite conferences as well. But when you see a partner who’s actively engaged at that level, we all know partners, partners are partners, but they have different levels of interaction. You have some partners where they’ll send you a lead, you’ll send them a lead and you talk once or twice a month on marketing aspects. But then you have other partners of which Avalara is one of these where they’re actively and heavily engaged in the community and then they’re also actively and heavily engaged with you.

When we bring in Kate or some of her coworkers, Eric Osbourne is one that comes to mind, they come into our meetings with the clients to talk about these requirements. They’re not coming in as an other, as an outsider. They’re coming in as part of the global team. Avalara, in my opinion, takes that approach with everything they do as far as community outreach, conferences, partnership, engagement. They’re truly, I’m fanboying a little bit here to be honest, so I’m just going to cut it off right there.

Ronald: Well, I think it’s such a good example. I mean there are other WooCommerce extensions or SaaS or services that plug into WooCommerce that might be listening to this and try to figure out, how do they do it and what are the sort of pieces of advice? And I think engaging with the ecosystem with the community is such a crucial part of doing well and growing sustainably in this industry. I also want to go back a couple of steps and I probably should have asked you about this a little bit earlier, but I think we went over a bit too quickly is actually when you are selling on other platforms, so you have your WooCommerce side, but you might also be selling on eBay or on Amazon. How does that work actually in terms of the tax compliance, Kate?

Kate: Sure. Yeah, so you mentioned a couple of marketplaces. So five years ago when that vague Wayfair law happened, lots of things changed. Shortly after that when some marketplace facilitator laws went into play. And so as far as US goes, pretty much most of the state that have economic nexus laws also have marketplace laws. And so huge misconception of fellows is, oh, I’m selling on such and such marketplace, they collect the tax, I don’t need to do a thing or worry about it. That is not true. It really is not. Back to my top five earlier mentioned, that is definitely the top five. So yes, they’re doing those things for you, but you still have to know if you are storing inventory, fulfillment center, if that state, then that triggers nexus. As well as knowing whether or not that state defined your marketplace sales as contributing towards your economic nexus.

And so what we have done is we have, again, those 1400 plus integration that are directly to a API communication into our engine, but we also have extractors. And so we extract the data from Amazon, et cetera, and we pull that into our tax engine just for reporting purposes, helping clients out. As well as the backend from their ERP back to my north coast customer that was delivering via their own company trucks, hence triggering Nexus. We’re going to plug in for that customer on the backend as well and capture all those tax exempt sales. So it’s very common and very common scenario is we have multiple integrations plus for the extractors and it’s all pulling under one umbrella, which is Avalara.

Ronald: Yeah, incredible. To be really honest, I never thought of it in such a vast, complicated landscape and actually the service that you provide. And it’s also to hear us, like Roger, that actually makes that connection with the customer, because again, they might not know these complexities. You start a business and it’s not the first thing you think about. It’s like, right, store is launch, right, let’s talk about tax. It’s something that’s quite often an afterthought.

Kate: Absolutely. Yeah, it’s an afterthought because it’s not a revenue driving activity and people don’t want to spend money. I tell my clients, listen, no, there’s a small, medium or large has a budget dedicated for sales tax compliant. But we do find that most companies, at least those that are doing it well, they do spend about 1% on compliance including sales tax in that mix. So it definitely needs to be something that should be thought of and when you get a hold of it early and take that proactive approach, you’re just setting yourself off for just future success and cost savings down the road.

Roger: And yeah, it does fall outside of the agency or small developer role a little bit, but it is something we need to be aware of. I think we can all agree that most clients take shipping extremely seriously and there’s a lot of shipping issues. And they’re all about shipping and figuring out all of these things with shipping, but yet at the same point in time, these folks who are so engaged in their shipping and understand that it’s so complex, then discount the tax complexities there. And I think it’s just because it’s not as in your face, but yet tax is as complex, if not more so than shipping. And the two are actually fairly tied close together.

Ronald: Yeah, absolutely. I once did a talk, it just reminded me of that a couple of years ago where you build e-commerce upside down and you actually start with these afterthoughts first and then work your way back all the way to the homepage because that’s where it often starts. It’s like, ah, let’s launch a site, let’s look what the homepage looks like, let’s add a logo, et cetera. But actually doing these sort of things first makes a lot more sense because then allocating 1% of your revenue to tax compliance. And then you start building up your profits, your promotions, et cetera, and then you probably set your way to success right from the beginning.

Roger: I think we as developers get it, a lot of clientele, when you ask them what’s the most important part of their website, they’re going to say the homepage. It’s not the homepage. The homepage may be the first look. But in e-commerce or just in general, I suppose, we don’t want people on the homepage, we want them in the checkout.

So, the homepage is just to facilitate somebody getting into that catalog as quickly as possible, getting down that sales funnel and getting into the checkout. So making sure that our cart, our checkout, and then by extension our tax and shipping flows and payment gateways are correct. That’s where the focus of all of the work should be. Homepage is very important. It has to look good, it has to have good user flow, but at the end of the day, the business of e-commerce is to sell things.

Ronald: Yeah, I couldn’t add any more to that. In fact, actually while we were online, I had to quickly Google if I would find a good tax quote. And hear me out. I don’t know even if it’s good, but it says here, a fine is a tax for doing wrong and a tax is a fine for doing well. Can anybody beat that?

Kate: I like that. I like that.

Roger: I was going to say, I think I’m going to steal that.

Kate: Yeah, that’s a tattoo-able quote almost, right? Or something you’d hang on your wall in your office and one of those pretty little decor things.

Ronald: Yeah. Oh yeah. If there’s a Avalara bumper sticker. I don’t know if that’s still a thing.

Roger: Next time you’re in Chicago, Kate, we’ll go get that tattooed, right here.

Kate: Oh no, absolutely. Absolutely. Well, if you’ll allow me to share a dad joke about Jack, I don’t know if I’ll beat your deep inspirational quote there.

Ronald: Yes, please.

Kate: My dad joke of the day is, why are accountants always tired after work? Because their job is so taxing. And there you go.

Roger: I’m not sure we could be friends anymore, Kate.

Ronald: I don’t know which part I find more funny because I can see Roger and that frown, that reaction was probably that the two of you together was difficult.

Kate: Okay. I started off, I called it out as a bad joke. Okay. That’s basically I, yeah, I laid the groundwork for some low expectations, okay.

Roger: In my defense, Kate and I have been well, business partners and friends for quite a while. So, I’m just going to go, I know how she is and just leave it with that.

Ronald: Well, I can, just a couple of final words. Thank you so much. It’s been actually really a good insightful, but also fun podcast recording. Thank you so much for your time and well, we’ll see you at the next WordCamp, in fact, WordCamp US.

Kate: Great. Thanks Ronald. Thanks Roger.

Roger: Thanks for having me.