Bringing a WordPress Form Plugin Into a Crowded Market

Brad: And a happy New Year. I’m your host, Brad Williams. And with me today is the man, the myth, the legend: Mr. BobWP. Bob, Happy New Year.

Bob: Happy New Year. I don’t know which of those three actually define me, but man’s pretty solid.

Brad: The man’s pretty factual. The myth, the legend… We’ll go with it. I like it. You deserve it, Bob. Trust me.

Bob: Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, this is the first show. There are some really cool products out there that some people just don’t know about quite yet. And I thought this was a perfect opportunity to bring on Mark Westguard from WS Forms. Hey, Mark. Welcome.

Mark: Hey, Bob and Brad; how are you?

Brad: Good.

Bob: I’m great.

Brad: So Mark, let’s start here. How did you kind of get into this whole thing, WordPress space, and then move into your product?

Starting 26 years ago with a web agency

Mark: Well, many years ago… I started a web agency about 26 years ago. So I’ve been in the web game for quite a while and have had various side gigs in software licensing. And about four years ago, sat down with my team and discussed developing a WordPress plugin. We wanted to contribute. We wanted to put something together and build a plugin. And rather than try and come up with the next best thing, we decided that we wanted to improve upon a space and put our foot in the water into the form plugin space. And one of the reasons for that was, we were building websites day in, day out for clients. And the form part of it was always a challenge for us. It was always quite a bit of work to get a form plugin to look the way we wanted it to do it; to get it to function the way we wanted to do it.

We also found that we had to install quite a few separate plugins to make it achieve what we wanted to do. Anything from a basic inquiry form all the way through to e-commerce and things like that. So off we went and started building WS Form. So, and here we are four years later with the product that we have. So that’s kind of the history behind it. And it’s been a long journey; a longer journey than I imagined. It’s been a really interesting journey as well. The people that we’ve met along the way, trying to reach customers, working with customers and really running a WordPress plugin business has been hugely fulfilling, but a challenge like any other business. So yeah, I’m pleased to be on the show today to be able to talk further about it.

Reactions on building a plugin for a crowded market

Brad: Yeah. I know you mentioned the primary reason, it sounds like, for building out the product is for your own use, right? When you’re within the agency and building sites for clients, I think on the surface when people hear, oh, you have a premium form plugin for WordPress, the first question’s going to be, “Really?” That’s the angle, you wanted to go up against Gravity Forms and Ninja Forms and some of these other… I mean, it’s a pretty crowded area of WordPress. It’s one of the first areas, maybe the first one, that really took off from a premium standpoint with Gravity Forms, at least from what I can remember.

So at some point, I’m sure when you kind of proposed this, you probably got some looks from your team. Maybe your partners. And I’m curious how… because I respect that. I respect the fact that you went into a crowded field and are making your mark. I’m curious how that kind of went down in the early pitch and formulating the idea stages of this product.

Mark: Yeah. I think the way it had to be sold was, there are plenty of form plugins out there that will build your run-of-the-mill Contact Us form. And there’s plenty of good forms out there that already do it. I have a huge amount of respect for all the form plugins that are out there. And I think each of them has their own place for different applications. The biggest sticking point for us was, we found that a lot of the plugins were difficult to work with in terms of getting a form onto a client site and not have it appear as if it’s a little alien on the page. We wanted to get the forms to look a lot more fluid on the sites. We have problems with form plugins in terms of mobile responsiveness.

I mean, even that was difficult with a lot of plugins and required putting in manual classes that you had to learn about and things like that. Even things like columns as well, just putting form fields next to each other; being able to lay out forms in the way that you wanted to. These were all things that we wrote down on a whiteboard and said, “Look, this is a challenge right now. Can we address this? Can we improve the way that that’s done?” And that’s really where WS Form was born.

So I guess our target audience nowadays is primarily kind of developers. People that are putting together websites day in, day out; be that many websites with an agency or even somebody that’s just working on a single website that needs something flexible for the site that they’re working on. And that’s really where we’ve kind of found a sweet spot. And I guess that’s something that we developed over time. It wasn’t something that was an initial target for the product, but we found that that’s a space that works well for us. So we work with a lot of the site builders, such as Oxygen, Bricks, Elementor… We’re integrated in with all of those platforms.

Looking at a no-code product

Brad: The no-code website building in general, just in the past few years, has really exploded. And that’s clearly what you’re leaning into with just the way you’re wording things in your site too. Right? It’s a no-code solution. So makes a lot of sense.

Mark: Yeah, yeah. I really, yeah… That’s really about making it easier for developers to build complex forms without the need for them having to write reams and reams of JavaScript or lots of PHP code. Just one example of one of the features we have, if your site is using Bootstrap or Foundation as a framework, WS Form will actually output native HTML for those frameworks. So if your site’s already styled, ready for Bootstrap or Foundation, it will output HTML natives to those frameworks and it works out of the box. So there’s no kind of custom styling needed. Obviously, if you’ve got a site that’s not using that, we have a full back framework that enables you to style that as well. So, but yeah, no code is a big thing. We had somebody mention on a Facebook group the other day that they love using WS Form and they’ve kind of forgotten how to code because it’s doing all the work for them. And that to me was a compliment; we were helping that person achieve a lot of the stuff that they needed without them having to write custom code to get that done.

Brad: Yeah. And a really massive feature set. Just kind of looking through, it’s big. How long ago did the first version come out?

Mark: Two years ago.

Brad: Wow.

Mark: I’m trying to think now. It’s actually when I first met Bob, which is… a WordCampUS. We actually launched it at a WordCamp in Texas. So we just kind of did a soft launch there. And then we did WordCampUS. And really, it was just a case of us having a small stand and demoing the product to as many people as we could to get the word out there. So that was about two and a half years ago. And it’s just developed from there, really. So as you’ve seen on the homepage, you can see all the different integrations that we have. We’ve got over 60 integrations with third parties.

Brad: A lot of integrations. Yeah. That’s some significant growth just in a couple years. Just in terms of feature set and integrations and just the number of things that it actually does. It’s impressive.

Mark: Yeah. So you’ve got the basic integrations such as Constant Contact, Mailchimp, all the email marketing platforms out there. You’ve got CRM integrations such as Groundhogg, Salesforce, and then you’ve got integrations with like Notion, Zapier… And then eventually we drifted into the WooCommerce space as well. Because we had a lot of our customers asking if they could use our form functionality on products. So that’s where our WooCommerce extension comes in.

Brad: That’s a great segue, Mark. Thanks.

Mark: Oh, you’re welcome.

Brad: Such a professional. We’re getting right to it. That’s great. But yeah, that’s exactly why you’re on the show, because we want to talk about your WooCommerce portion of this as well.

A feature-rich WooCommerce add-on

So yeah, you have the WS Form Pro product add-on for WooCommerce. So tell us a little bit more about how that kind of takes… You kind of touched on it, but it takes basically the power of that no-code form builder and brings it to WooCommerce and store owners.

Mark: Yeah. So what that enables you to do is to take any of the functionality of WS Form. So that includes all the different field types that we have, including signatures, Google Maps, features such as the tabulation, conditional logic, repeaters, all of the fun things you can do with the forms. You can then place that onto a product to enable you to customize the product. So very simple example of that would be like a donate product where you can put a price field on a product, put an amount in, and that becomes the price of the product. So you can actually customize the price of the product using the WS Form e-commerce features. So you can have a select dropdown with different prices on it. You can have radios, you can have checkboxes to add up prices on top of the base product price. And then we have other things, such as product configurators. So you could put a T-shirt on the page and enable somebody to choose the color, even overlay a design on a T-shirt, if you want to, using some of the features that we have.

Brad: I love that feature. It’s such a common thing that you see in stores now; especially for clothing, that’s always a really easy example, right? Like, here’s a T-shirt; what color do you want? Click green, the shirt changes to green, or changes the logo or whatever. But to build that in a custom way would take a significant amount of work.

Mark: Yeah, and we have a tutorial on our website to help people with that. Product customization is quite a complex area because everybody has different types of products. Not everyone’s just got a T-shirt; they may have a mug, they might have some other form of product that they want to customize. So we have a tutorial showing how that can be done. And hopefully we’ll produce some other tutorials for that for different types of products to help people out with that. The signature field is a nice feature because you can actually have people approve their design before it’s actually added to the cart. So that can be added to a page. We’ve actually had a customer selling custom wooden maps online, and they used our Google Map feature to enable you to choose the area and zoom in that you wanted for that particular product. So that’s another example of it there.

Solving the problem of customization on a WooCommerce site

Brad: Yeah. It seems extremely customizable. I mean, I watched some of the demo videos… I haven’t played with this yet personally, but I watched some of the videos and it’s impressive. I mean, I think… like I said, building out some of the stuff custom or piecing together four or five different plugins or add-ons trying to get things like this to work is insanely frustrating, or just a significant effort to do. Even in the video, you could see where he had all this customized pricing, which I thought was really kind of interesting and powerful, where you had different checkboxes and sliders and dropdowns. And based on all these different things that you picked, the price would go up or down, which kind of just showed the power of… the flexibility of how you could configure these things. Because I think that is a big pain point in the WooCommerce area is… Selling them a product, great. It does that out of the box, no problem. But actually getting into the customization, which is a big part of e-commerce these days, is where people start to struggle. So it seems like a pretty good solution for that.

Mark: Yeah, indeed. And some of the features like our tabs make that customization a lot easier as well, because you can piecemeal that process for users. And then we have quite extensive conditional logic that enables you to switch parts of the form on and off. So you don’t have to overwhelm the user with 400 fields. You can cut that down based upon the responses they give you using conditional logic.

Running a hook or pushing data to a custom API endpoint

One of the other powerful parts of WS Form with WooCommerce is our action system. And essentially, each form in WS Form can have one or many actions. And an action can be anything from simple stuff, such as sending an email, pushing a contact to Constant Contact or Mailchimp. But you can also go much further than that. You can do things such as running a WordPress hook or pushing data to a custom API endpoint.

And those actions can actually be fired when the status of a WooCommerce order changes. So for example, if you wanted to send a design of a T-shirt, or maybe some other customization information to a particular department in your business, you can tell WS Form when that order is actually completed to fire that action, run that action, and it will then send that information to whoever you want. So, and you can do that based upon different steps of the WooCommerce statuses as well. So if you’ve got various statuses within your system, like preparing order, shift order, all this kind of stuff, you can fire different actions for those different statuses.

Brad: Yeah, that sounds insanely powerful, hooking into action hooks. I mean, or hooking into hooks.

Mark: Hooking into hooks, yeah.

Brad: Tapping into action hooks. However you want to say it. I mean… once you get back into coding and stuff like that, if you understand what that means, you can understand that that basically opens up the world of WordPress to you right there with triggering things.

Thanks to our Pod Friends GoDaddy Pro Hub and Trustpilot

Beyond a form plugin

Bob: So essentially, you have created a plugin that… And I don’t know if you found this with your users, especially around WooCommerce… It sounds like… and I’m even thinking of a few things I use here and there, even though I don’t have a big store… is by having your form plugin there, they maybe have found they can eliminate some other plugins that they had for… like Brad said, piece mealed all this. I wanted to do this and this, and I have to have all these different ones. So you’re offering a solution that’s… really essentially goes beyond the form, although it’s all built exactly into the form.

Mark: Yeah. Some people call us an app builder rather than a form builder, because that’s kind of what it can do. As part of that customization process, you can do things like image uploads as well. We have the ability to drag and drop images in. And all these things require one on more separate plugins to achieve. Whereas using WS Form and our WooCommerce extension, you can do a lot of those things that you would otherwise need these multiple plugins for. So we’ve kind of condensed it down into a single plugin. Now, integration with third-party platforms, that’s a separate plugin with us. That’s a separate add-on. We’ve just done that for efficiency of the product. We don’t want to have to have 66 integrations built into the core plugin. That doesn’t make sense. But the field functionality, the action functionality and everything else that we offer, is all part of that core. And it just makes it a lot easier for someone to use. I don’t have to dig around and work out what plugin they have to use. It’s all there; there and ready.

Bob: And I don’t know how many other form plugins… So it sounds like, and I will admit, I did put WS Forms on my site and I’ve… Just getting my own forms, it was one of these things that the… And I’ll be honest, the migration was very easy, that I moved to WS Forms… But once I got in, I realized so much more I could do with my form. So I started reworking each form a bit, which of course added more to my workload, but that was by choice of me because there were more options. But this is actually stuff you can build into the product page versus a lot of stuff you have to think of, “Okay, I’m going to have to create a separate page and bring in WooCommerce blocks and do this, and then add these other pieces,” where this essentially works around the built-in default product page. Right?

Mark: Right. Right. And this was something that we noticed when we were developing WooCommerce websites… was maybe we wanted to hide the product price, or we wanted to move where the Add to Cart button was, or we wanted to move where the quantity field was. And what WS Form enables you to do is… Well, when you install WS Form with the WooCommerce extension, in the field library that we have, we actually add some additional components specifically to WooCommerce.

So you can drag and drop a quantity field onto the product. You can drag and drop an Add to Cart button; as many as you want as well. So you can have an Add to Cart at the top and an Add to Cart at the bottom. There are all these forum posts online about, how do I add another Add to Cart button? How do I move the quantity? How do I hide the price? And we’ve built that all into the product. So you could decide whether you want to hide the WooCommerce Add to Cart button and use ours instead. Hide a price. You can really customize how that product page looks by using those components. So as well as providing that customization functionality on the products itself, we also provide the options to manipulate how that product page looks for specific products as well, to make them more user friendly.

Brad: Yeah. That’s an interesting topic because I 100% agree… These little things that seem like they should be easy, right, like the Add to Cart button and moving it or something is not always the easiest thing in the world to, one, figure out, and two, actually do. And it also kind of gets into the topic of like Gutenberg and full site editing and where that ends up within the WooCommerce world and WooCommerce core software or not. But I think what’s really fascinating about just this in general… and this is probably one challenge I would imagine that you have… is the marketing of this, right? Because just everything you said takes it way beyond just a form plugin. Right?

Marketing a robust plugin is a challenge

So like you said, the initial thing, form plugin, contact form, contact me, subscribe to my newsletter. When you start talking about a form plugin and the WooCommerce add-on, you can start moving the Add to Cart button in the quantity fields and stuff… That’s obviously well beyond just a typical form. How do you get around that? Because I would… You run into that, where people think, “Oh, I probably can’t do that. It’s just a form plugin.” No, actually, it can; it can do way more than that. How do you get past that from a marketing standpoint and messaging standpoint?

Mark: It’s a real challenge for both our core product and for the WooCommerce extension as well, because it does so much stuff. There’s no 10-second clip that I can show people to show them everything that it does. Videos help. So we have a video on the WooCommerce extension page and on our homepage that explains some of the key features. It’s only really when people get into the product and start using it that they realize the extent of what it can actually do. And that’s where relationships with influencers, other users that talk about products, talking to you guys… is really where it’s worth its weight in gold for me, in terms of actually getting the word out there about the product. We’ve tried, like all other WordPress plugins, I’m sure, many different ways of trying to market the product itself. And really, relationships, the WordPress community, talking to people, has just been the most valuable for us. And probably the most fulfilling as well.

I love talking to people about it. And when someone uses it and then they come back and they’re like, “Wow, this thing is really powerful and enables me to do so much stuff,” that’s really rewarding. And I think we see that in the reviews that we get back as well, all of the reviews that we get on WordPress.org, because that’s where we kind of focus our reviews, are already heartfelt reviews. People have taken the time to write about the product and not just write a one-liner that says, “Great product.” They’ve actually written a little story about how they used it and how it’s helped them, which is great. So for us, this is not going to be an overnight success with a million users. This is hard work, but it’s very rewarding working with people.

And one of the things that we really focus on across the board with the WooCommerce side of it and on WS Form is our support. So we’re very hot on helping people achieve what they want to do with the product. We’re very responsive in terms of adding new functionality and new features to WS Form if they need it. We have a feature request page with many, many great ideas that we’ll eventually get round to implementing. But yeah, it’s a great journey.

Brad: Yeah. And obviously, just in the past couple years with lack of conferences, lack of really in person events, adds to that challenge. Because like you mentioned, it’s just getting out there and showing people; demoing in a sponsor booth or going to a local meetup and showing it off. So I think we’ve all had to get a bit creative, especially something that maybe is more visual, of how we get the word out these past few years.

Mark: Yeah, I agree. Yeah. And there’s no easy channel for doing that. If you put your product on the plugin directory, you are lost amongst many thousands of other plugins. There’s no simple way of doing it. It just needs hard work and getting out there and doing it and producing content. And it’s definitely a challenge.

Brad: Yeah. I will say I loved your videos. You mentioned them earlier. The videos, Bob, I don’t know if you saw any of them, but they’re very highly-produced and really quickly get to some really cool content when 20 seconds in, you’re like, “Holy crap,” when you see what it does. And then you want to keep watching it, right? And then you also have the demo site, you can go play around with it. So hats off to whoever worked on the videos, because I thought those were really well done.

Mark: Yeah. Yeah. And there is the demo on the site, as you said, which has WooCommerce installed on it. So if anybody wants to try it, they can go to WSForm.com, click on demo, and they can actually set up their own demo WordPress environment to try the plugins.

Bob: Well, actually, both Mark and I were at the State of the Word and I had to just smile because in the hotel, there was a few of us staying in the same hotel and I walked down and in the lobby, Mark was demoing WS Forms for somebody over on the table there. And he was deep into it. And I just had to smile because it kind of took me back to thinking, “Oh, that, yep. This is what we miss in real life events anymore and stuff.” Was that and it was… Yeah. Just grab a couple chairs.

Brad: Did you walk up and hear, “Sir, this is the check-in desk; that looks great and all, but this is where you check into your room”?

Mark: Yeah. I was just grabbing random guests to show them.

Brad: The concierge’s desk, I mean, that looks great, but that’s not what we do here. Hey, got to get creative, right? You got to hustle a little bit. But that’s cool. I didn’t realize you were out there with Bob. So very cool.

Mark: Yeah. It was a great experience and it was great to see everyone and meet some new faces and… I think Bob and I ate in the same restaurant five times. Because no one was really going anywhere,.

Brad: Very cool. Well, hopefully this year things can at some point get back to where we can do a little more in-person stuff and some more hands-on stuff, then. Because I know that’s important. It’s important to all of us, not just to interact with humans on that level, but from a business standpoint, it’s important to make connections, networking, demos, show things off. We all want to see it. This is stuff Bob and I probably would’ve seen sooner at an event that we normally would’ve went to that we haven’t been going to because they don’t exist these past couple years.

Plans for the checkout page

Bob: Yeah. It sounds like mostly this is customizations you can make on the product page. Do you foresee you going into the checkout any time, or is that something you’re already doing?

Mark: That’s something that we’re working on. So that’s going to be a next big feature of this, which will enable you to customize the checkout fields. So the billing, shipping, but also be able to ask additional questions on the checkout page, because the same theory can be applied to the checkout page as well. We already have a user management add-on which enables you to create login forms, forgotten password forms, registration forms. So all that could be customized using that add-on. So yeah, checkout will be the next evolution of that extension for sure.

Brad: Yeah. I’m sure that’s a pretty big item requested. That’s probably another one of those questions you see all over the place is like, how can I add one field to the checkout? Or how can I add a newsletter subscription checkbox to the checkout, right? Like people want to customize that a little bit and get a little bit more information right on that page. So again, it’s not the easiest thing in the world to do right now unless you’re more of a power advanced user. So give some people some good options.

Mark: Yeah. We’ve made sure that the forms themselves, you can actually have multiple forms on the page as well. So if you’ve got, say, a newsletter sign up in the footer of your site or somewhere else on the page, that will work in conjunction with the product customization as well. So we’ve made sure that you can have multiple instances of forms on a page without them clashing, which I know could be a problem with some other form plugins. So yeah, we’re excited to see where it goes. And a lot of that is just driven by customer feedback; what people need it for. And that checkout part has definitely been a request. So we’re on it. We’re on it.

Bob: Yeah. That’s what I figured because I know the last couple years we’ve talked to… Well, I’ve talked to a lot of people, all the new checkout products have come out and stuff, and it seems like a natural segue for you because again, most of these plugins are that; they are specifically checkout and this is another added customization to what you’re already doing. Makes a lot of sense.

Mark: And one of the things I should’ve mentioned was the kind of the process of adding those customizations to the products is actually all done within the product editor in WooCommerce. So all we have to do is add your product or edit an existing product. And then we actually have a WS Form tab under the product settings. You just click on that. You can choose an existing template or create a new template and off it goes. So it’s quite a straightforward process. I mean, to build a donation form, a donation product, is three clicks and it’s done. It does everything for you. And then you can then edit that form, make it fully mobile-responsive. We are very hot on accessibility as well. So everything is ARIA tags and WCAG compliant to make sure that when that form goes on your page, that it’s accessible and works with the rest of the thing that you’ve got.

Brad: I mean, this is definitely, I think, a plugin and add-on for WooCommerce that I think anybody in the builder space in WooCommerce should check out because ultimately… Maybe they’re already doing this in some other way and it’s working great and that’s fine, but if they’re not, some of this functionality can be easy upsells to an existing client or a client that walks in the door and say, “Oh, yeah, you want to add… You want customized T-shirts and colors? No problem. We can do that.” And you can literally knock it out of the park and in a matter of just configuring the plugin and setting it up, you’re done. So there’s some massive wins here that the no-code solutions can solve and bring more opportunities to the creators out there for them and for their clients of what to sell or what to push on. And so I love products like this, because it can really expand what people are doing for them and for their clients, regardless of skill level, really.

Mark: Yeah. The conditional logic that we have really enables you to do a lot of crazy stuff. The T-shirt demo we have, for example, analyzes the color that you’ve chosen and, and looks at the lightness of the color and then will change the color of the text on the T-shirt from black to white, according to how light the color is. And that’s all done with our conditional logic. There’s no custom code there for that. So yeah, it’s… I could go on for hours about the functionality that’s built into it, but it’s… Yeah. Give it a try, get your hands dirty in it. And if anybody has any questions, then our support team’s there to help you out.

What the builders really wanted when it came to WooCommerce

Bob: So what do you think, having said all this, and you’ve already touched on a few of them, what do you think are the two top features that you put into WooCommerce extension that were probably the most wanted or needed by builders? Is there a couple that really stand out and you just knew that this was going to be one of the most sought-after ones?

Mark: I mean, I guess in general, the two main things were just the ability to add fields to a product to customize it and get that added as… It was what we call cart metadata. But once you type in something into a custom field, to be able to see that on the cart and have that go all the way through to an order… And then the customization of the product elements, such as the Add to Cart, the quantity and things like that, was another big thing that got asked about and something that we added to the product early on. We asked a lot of customers about what they wanted it to do and what features it needed. I think the running of the actions, I know I’m going on to a third one now, but that was another big ask as well. So being able to run the form actions as a result of an order being processed and being paid for and being completed has been really, really useful for a lot of customers as well.

Brad: Yeah, that’s huge. I could see that being huge.

Mark: It fits in with their fulfillment processes that they have. And being able to, for example, push an order through to a CRM platform like Salesforce to say, here’s all of our customizations that have been requested, or any of the other CRMs that we integrate with has been a really powerful feature too.

Brad: And you mentioned even on updates too, like a status update on an order, right? So I could see a scenario where if an order gets updated, maybe a message, because I know you got a Slack option, I’m assuming they work together. Maybe it drops a Slack message to say, “Hey, this order’s been updated and it’s now delayed or needs somebody to look at it because something’s up with it.” And it just drops right into your Slack support channel and away you go. So that type of automation can be a massive game changer, just workflow of an e-commerce store.

Mark: Yeah. You can even attach WS Form to a product without any customization and just use the action part of it. So if someone does a refund, maybe you want that to be emailed to a department so they can follow up on that and see why that refund was requested. But yeah, like you said, you can push that to Slack messages. Our Slack add-on is really dynamic in what it can do. You can actually add buttons to the Slack messages. You can add links, colors, all kinds of stuff that can then tie in with any of the Slack channels that you have set up in your account. So if you’re using Slack within your organization, then it’s a great tool for that.

Bob: Do I dare ask what WS stands for?

Mark: So my agency was called Westguard Solutions. So it took a lot of thinking, but WS Form is what we came up with.

Brad: Serious brainstorming there.

Mark: Yeah. I mean, we considered changing the name, coming up with a cuddly toy for the logo, but it just kind of stuck.

A full-time gig or is there still agency work

Brad: Are you doing this full time now? Have you pivoted away from client services and agency work and now you’re essentially a product company, or are you still kind of doing both?

Mark: Still doing both. Yeah. I think like a lot of plug-in developers, we’re making great strides to be able to have WS Form stand on its own two feet. I mean, it essentially is now. I think I’ll always have a degree of agency work that I’m working on. I enjoy doing it. And this is a side project that… I think eventually this product will piggyback into other things. I’ve got other ideas for plugins that I think my customer base would be interested in. But right now, I’m focused on building just WS Form as a plugin and getting that right before I spread myself too thin on too many projects.

Brad: Yeah. That’s cool to hear. I mean, we’ve talked to companies that kind of pivoted from the agency space and the products and kind of went all in. I’ve talked to… we know companies that do both. Modern Tribe’s a good example that for years they had the events calendar side of the house and then the agency side of the house. And by all accounts, they were pretty equal in size, at least from my understanding. So obviously, they’ve since been acquired, but… very successful over the years doing that. So it’s interesting to see kind of the path that people take and knowing that you enjoy the agency and client services, that makes sense to keep that rolling.

Mark: Yeah. We’ll see where the journey takes us.

Brad: Right. We’ll talk to you next year and see if you’re still on track.

Mark: Yeah. There’s a lot of things that I’m doing this year that will come to light and we’re excited about the growth of the product.

Brad: Awesome. All right. Well, I think that wraps up the show today. This is really great, Mark. I appreciate you sharing your story and journey and talking more about your plugin and add-ons and all the amazing things it does. We always like to ask, where can people find you online? Website, social media, what’s the best way to reach out?

Mark: The website is just WSForm.com and that’s where you can sign up for a demo. We have a coupon code for Bob, which is just BobWP, which gives you 20% off the product. And if you want to reach us on Twitter, we are WS_Form. So we can be reached on Twitter there. And you’ll see me on various Facebook groups and other areas such as that as well.

Bob: Cool. Alrighty. Well, thank you again, Mark. Yeah, it was great to… I love being able to highlight a product that so little people know about. Especially in the Woo space, because it’s kind of one of these hidden gems that I think… and I think I’m going to just discover a lot myself, just playing around with it on my site. So really appreciate you coming on today.

Brad: Thanks, Mark. This is great.

Mark: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it.