The Challenges and Wins of Creating a Suite of WordPress Plugins

Mark Westgard:
Hey, welcome to do the Woo behind the Build, hosted by me, Mark Westgard. In this series, we’re going to go behind the scenes of WordPress plugin businesses, exploring the journey from concept to creation, as well as the ongoing work involved in maintaining and running those businesses. Today’s guest is Steve Burge, who’s the founder of Publish Press and co founder of Logtivity. And I’m pleased to welcome another British expat to the show. Welcome Steve. Hey Mark, it’s been a long time since you and I met in person. I think it was probably WordCamp us a few years ago and before that it was in Oklahoma in February 2022 where we met at the post status. I forget what the event was now, but it was for. I think it was for small businesses. So anyway, Steve, do you want to give us a little bit of background about how your WordPress journey began?

Steve Burge:
Oh well, sure thing. Well, me and you have led oddly parallel lives. Like we’re both expats from England. We moved to the deep south of the U.S. we were kind of involved in technology after marrying American woman and moving here. We both got into the business around the same time and we’ve both started building plug in businesses. In my case, I was originally a teacher when I moved over here and I was a teacher and I loved it until I had a wife, kids and a mortgage and it became very difficult to keep being a teacher. I think Georgia, where we lived at the time, probably ranked 49th, I think, in teacher pay in the U.S. so I kind of had a little bit of a technology dabbler background before. And so in the evenings after working as a teacher in the Atlanta area, I started to build up a web design business and I kind of miss it. I miss being a teacher still, even like 15 years after I stopped it. Because as me and you, we sit in our offices all day tapping away on our keyboard. I still have a bit of nostalgia for actually being there in person with people, teaching kids, interacting with the other teachers.

Mark Westgard:
And in 2008 that’s when you started OS training, is that right?

Steve Burge:
Yes, I kind of went into the open source world with the thought in my mind, what was my differentiator? And I figured it was probably my teaching background. I could take my teaching experience and apply it to helping people learn how to use open source platforms.

Mark Westgard:
Okay, and then 2016 was Joomla Shack. What was that? Tell us a bit more about that.

Steve Burge:
Oh, well, we. We did several years of teaching and it was really good. Business was good. And we did a lot of Drupal at the time, some WordPress, a lot of Drupal. And we ended up with customers like the Department of Education, Department of Veterans affairs, we had the Department of Energy. I was living up in Washington D.C. at the time and basically had a roster of all these great big logos on our training company website. And the one day I woke up, and not to make this political, but I hold a grudge even now against Ted Cruz, who he shut down the government in 2013, I think it was. And overnight I suddenly realized that all these departments that we had on our training roster, it was really one client, it was the government. And almost overnight, all of the live training business, we had disappeared. And all of these government departments, they kicked their budget. Like they said, hey, we’re going to restart our training budget next year.

Mark Westgard:
Well, 12 months later, that wasn’t going to help you.

Steve Burge:
No, things have changed. And a lot of the small companies, like the computer training labs that we partnered with, had gone out of business in the meantime.

Mark Westgard:
So in 2018, you started PublishPress and what inspired you to create, well, start PublishPress, because that’s now a suite of what, 10 plugins?

Steve Burge:
Yeah, we keep adding them all the time. We took a lot of the learnings we had from those big government clients in Drupal and kind of tried to think about the same problems in the WordPress space because quite a few of the customers we had, I remember going to like a big pharmaceutical company and we were teaching them Drupal. And I said, just out of curiosity, why did you choose Drupal instead of WordPress? And they said, because Drupal has a really, really good access control.

Mark Westgard:
Okay.

Steve Burge:
And workflow and WordPress at the time either didn’t or really didn’t give the impression that it had that available. So we took some of those learnings and we said, what if we could make WordPress attractive to some of those big enterprise clients by providing some really good editing, access control, workflow, workflow control.

Mark Westgard:
So is that, was that the reason that you got into WordPress? You saw the gap in the market there with functionality that you could add to it.

Steve Burge:
So yes, partly it was we saw the opportunity in WordPress and also it wasn’t just the training business that was going through a big change. It was also Drupal. They just released Drupal 8, which had rewritten the whole thing in Symfony.

Mark Westgard:
Okay.

Steve Burge:
A new PHP framework, and it was impossible to migrate from Drupal 7 to Drupal 8 without enormous amounts of work. So WordPress was really a good opening for us at that time to move from training into software.

Mark Westgard:
I guess since then we’ve not really had any backward compatibility problems with WordPress from version to version. It’s been fairly smooth sailing. There’s been a few things that we have to change, particularly as plugin developers. But yeah, fairly smooth sailing. So when you decided to get into the WordPress realm, what was the first of your 10 plugins that you built and how long did it take you from concept to launch with that particular plugin?

Steve Burge:
Well, the first one that we. Ooh, we dabbled a few times actually, I was going to say our first PublishPress plugin, but to be honest, we probably tried three or four different avenues at least trying to take concepts from outside of WordPress and apply them into WordPress.

Mark Westgard:
Okay.

Steve Burge:
And it never really worked because we needed to have those failures and to learn enough about WordPress to figure out exactly what problems WordPress users needed.

Mark Westgard:
Right, right. So did those products, are they still around or are they ones that you set aside and worked on other plugins?

Steve Burge:
We had a project management plugin and really the main problem was people don’t really need those SaaS services, those SaaS style things like project management inside WordPress.

Mark Westgard:
Okay.

Steve Burge:
Then we had that one is still around, but I don’t think anyone updates it anymore after we sold it. Our next plugin was one which did lots of fancy embeds.

Mark Westgard:
Okay.

Steve Burge:
And that one is we sold it to a company, I think out of India who are really doing gangbusters with it. It’s called EmbedPress.

Mark Westgard:
Great. I mean, these plugins were good enough that you could sell them. Yes, that’s a good sign.

Steve Burge:
Yeah, we managed to offboard all of them for enough to cover our costs of developing them, but definitely wasted a lot of time and effort going through that learning process of a couple years.

Mark Westgard:
So PublishPress has always been a team effort. Right. You’ve always had developers that build the products for you?

Steve Burge:
Yes, we got our feet wet in software development in the Joomla Platform first.

Mark Westgard:
Right. Okay. And then you took the same team across into PublishPress.

Steve Burge:
Yeah, I literally put my hand, put a, put the question out to a team meeting one day, who is brave enough to move over to WordPress? And a couple of our team put their hands up.

Mark Westgard:
But a good move overall in the end because PublishPress, I remember meeting you in 2022 at the post status event and my meeting with you was one of those meetings that’s a core memory for me and it may not be for you, but it was for me. And I remember us having a beer up in a bar somewhere and just sitting down and chatting to you about my progress because I was quite new to the scene then and it was eye opening to me talking to you because I think I was probably about two years in and my sales were still trickling in. People didn’t know who I was. I was still learning how to market it and everything else and just sitting down and chatting to you about your experience and where I was kind of financially. And you said, I remember you saying to me, if you’re at that stage there, it’s going to start taking off in the next three, four, five years. I was like, okay, I’m going to keep at it. And I’m glad that I did.

Steve Burge:
Oh, you actually had doubts of that conversation at that time, whether it was worth keeping on going?

Mark Westgard:
Yeah, I mean, I had come from an agency background, so I’ve had an agency since 96, so I built quite a successful business, but really wanted to move into product as you were doing. And those first couple of years you’re thinking, wow, easier ways of making money than this. But fortunately it has taken off and now I’m able to share that knowledge that you gave me with other plugin developers as well who are starting out slow. If you’re bootstrapping a business, you don’t have an existing customer base there. So that’s definitely something I took away from you when we met.

Steve Burge:
I guess we sell these plugins on an annual basis, which makes it slower. If you’re launching a SaaS service and things are successful and you’re able to charge monthly, that can kind of supercharge things. The annual subscriptions for the plugins definitely have a much slower ramp up.

Mark Westgard:
Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And it’s nice when it does start to ramp up and you start getting seeing that annual snowball effect coming in. So is locativity more of a SaaS product? Is that a reason that you went into that realm?

Steve Burge:
Yeah. So I joke that we had like three or four failures on the plugin side before we finally managed to get a successful series of products out the door, and I think we’re still going through that process with SaaS services. I’ve failed on two of them and Locktivity is the third one, and it’s finally getting traction. It’s. Oh, it’s like learning to build plugins. I’m sure you probably went through this when you launched an agency. There’s so much niche knowledge, niche understanding of how to do things that you have to pick up and you just have to do it by failing.

Mark Westgard:
So tell us about Logtivity. What is it? What does it do at the core?

Steve Burge:
At the moment, it’s an activity log service. So the initial customer was someone who had a really big, busy membership site, and all of the activity log plugins that they had would keep crashing.

Mark Westgard:
Okay.

Steve Burge:
Because they had so much data stored on their database that they could never export the data. They could never do anything with the data.

Mark Westgard:
So this was like log entries from WordPress about perhaps errors or even things happening on the website being logged.

Steve Burge:
Yeah, exactly.

Mark Westgard:
Okay.

Steve Burge:
Like they, for example, if a member wanted to do a chargeback, they needed to see all of the user’s activity on the site or the files they downloaded, and then they could send it to PayPal and say, hey, this guy’s lying.

Mark Westgard:
He’s right, right, right.

Steve Burge:
He’s done all this.

Mark Westgard:
Okay. And so what it does is it offloads the log data to a. I guess like almost like a cloud service. Right. And then you can review the logs on your site.

Steve Burge:
Yeah, exactly.

Mark Westgard:
Cool. And where did the idea for Locktivity come from? Because, you know, you’ve had good success with PublishPress 10 plugins there that you’re selling, and then you suddenly wanted to get into the SaaS business. So what was the influence to move in that direction?

Steve Burge:
Well, I guess there’s probably a bit of news I can break that I don’t think I’ve mentioned this on a podcast before.

Mark Westgard:
You heard it here first.

Steve Burge:
Yeah. You heard of here. It’s one of those little red alarm alert. Not quite an acquisition exactly, but some news about Logtivity that we originally were looking to act on. Feedback from our published press customers who would say, we’re thinking about the enterprise users, we’re thinking about the people who really need to be careful about what happens on their site. And a lot of them were saying, we need to have an audit trail. There was the phrase they would use because they’re used to the more enterprise Y term audit trail or audit log rather than activity Log. Like we need to know what’s happening on our site and who’s doing what. So we went out looking for an acquisition and ended up partnering with the developer, the original developer of Logtivity. We ended up taking it over last year, so we became full owners of it.

Mark Westgard:
Okay, great.

Steve Burge:
So the breaking news is, after a bit of a roundabout, circular route, we’re actually going to finally make our PublishPress customers happy and move it into PublishPress.

Mark Westgard:
Oh, fantastic. Yeah, one less brand for you to worry about. You can move it in with the Penguins.

Steve Burge:
Out of all the lessons we’ve had, that’s another one that we’re going to choose to ride our winners and double down on the winners, rather than trying to diversify too much over too many brands.

Mark Westgard:
Yeah, yeah. Well, I’m glad you have a diverse portfolio there because I use your capabilities plugin all the time. It’s a great product and I recommend it to all of my customers as well because they often need to tweak their capabilities. It’s a great product having so many products. How do you approach customer support and what have you learned about handling user feedback with difficulty?

Steve Burge:
It is difficult to do customer support over multiple platforms. So at the moment we support PublishPress plugin called Metaslider, a plugin called Taxopress, Locktivity, and also a legacy Joomla Brand as well. And it’s not easy. It’s pain.

Mark Westgard:
No. Yeah.

Steve Burge:
Because our support staff have to be trained across the platform and they have to jump back and forth and that’s.

Mark Westgard:
Do you have one team that manages the support for all of those products?

Steve Burge:
Yeah, and that’s. It’s onboarding is not easy.

Mark Westgard:
Right? Yeah.

Steve Burge:
So that’s one of the reasons why we’re looking to collapse the number of brands we have into a smaller number. And I still find myself intervening a lot not to try and do the job of the customer support team, but I don’t know where else to get user feedback. And often a lot of the customers still are people that I’ve known and met, that I’ve met at WordCamps, people like you, other plugin partners. I feel very in tune with the business and customer needs. If. If I’m in there, we use Help Scout. If I’m in Help Scout every day and even if not replying, at least reading customer tickets. Finding the pain points.

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Mark Westgard:
Handle all the support because I just, I love.

Steve Burge:
Oh, 100%.

Mark Westgard:
100%. Yeah, I know I shouldn’t. Everyone’s like, stop it. But yeah, I’ve done a lot of work on support as well in trying to reduce support tickets by improving the knowledge base and improving information that’s available for the product, which I think is critical. And if I ever get a question more than once, then I’ll write a knowledge base article about it to try and, you know, so someone can find the answer quicker basically and in turn reduce my support load as well. So, yeah, I feel your pain, but I think you’re right in being involved in support is a real critical way about knowing how your business is going, really. You know, where people’s pain points are and where you can improve the products. I know quite a few fairly big business owners that, that still do that. You know, I know like Ben Gabler from Rocket.net, every time I meet him, he’s on his phone checking his support tickets and making sure that people are getting that rapid response. But I think customer support is so critical to the success of a plugin.

Steve Burge:
I’m sure it engenders an enormous amount of trust in your users that if they send a ticket into WS form, they’re going to get the guy the face of the business. He’s going to reply directly to you. I mean, the trust factor that comes with that is very hard to replicate or compete with.

Mark Westgard:
Yeah, I can’t promise I’ll be able to do that forever. I hope I won’t be able to do that forever, but we’ll see how the growth continues.

Steve Burge:
Maybe if you hire someone, the next step will be being 50% of tickets.

Mark Westgard:
Yeah, yeah, I don’t think I’ll be able to leave it alone because I’m just too paranoid about what’s going on.

Steve Burge:
And then where does the customer feedback from? You’re sat in your office like we talked about earlier. You’re not out there meeting and shaking hands with customers. The help desk is where the feedback is.

Mark Westgard:
Yeah, yeah, that’ll never stop. Yeah. I think something I learned early on in my business was originally I used to kind of push the WS form brand and not me. And I found that people really wanted to be interacting with the person that made the plugin, and you become the brand, not so much the name that you gave your product. So that’s been an interesting thing for me. What, in terms of marketing channels and strategies that have worked for you for promoting your products, what have you found has worked the best?

Steve Burge:
We have probably not been as big on marketing as we should have been, to be honest. We’ve launched a. Launched a podcast now post quite a bit on. On LinkedIn. But our approach had been, and probably a little different from. From you, that you launched WS form built from the ground up. I know you’re a hell of a coder, so you coded everything from scratch. Our approach has been a little different that we’d started by trying to acquire premium plugins with a lot of users. So we took over a couple of plugins that had, say, 100,000 users. When we took over Metaslider, it had 600,000 users. So the marketing was kind of to the existing customer base because the existing user base was there. That’s probably reached its limits now that we’ve taken in and we’ve.

Mark Westgard:
I guess you’ve marketed to those customers, right?

Steve Burge:
Yeah, we’ve got. Added the pro features. We’ve kind of. So I’m probably not the best person to ask. There are absolutely better marketers out there than me.

Mark Westgard:
Yeah, well, I mean, that’s another way of doing it, right, is you buy a product with an existing customer base and then market to those. Whereas I’ve had to, you know, blood, sweat and tears, get every license that I’ve ever had. I’ve done it the hard way.

Steve Burge:
You know what? That was probably a lesson we learned from our first three plugin failures, like, start a new plugin with no audience. Start a new plugin with no audience. Like, fourth time, me being a genius.

Mark Westgard:
I was like, I need to buy some customers.

Steve Burge:
Yes, good idea. Yeah.

Mark Westgard:
Yeah. Maybe you could lease those customers to me. We could maybe do a deal.

Steve Burge:
I have enormous admiration for how you’ve done building a plugin business from scratch. I can think of very few examples of someone that’s been able to do that over the last few years.

Mark Westgard:
It’s been tough, but it’s been fun. I’ve really enjoyed it. And I love the WordPress community. I can honestly say that it’s been. I have not done it alone. It has been a lot of very nice people in the community vouching for what I’m doing and helping me out and giving me tips. So I’ll have to interview myself on this show and tell everybody how I marketed it, but. So here’s a tough question for you. Well, maybe not a tough question. If you could go back and do one thing differently, what would you do?

Steve Burge:
From my whole career or from WordPress.

Mark Westgard:
I guess from the WordPress. Yeah, from the WordPress space I would.

Steve Burge:
Well, probably the. Maybe the. Trying to go back through all the mistakes we’ve made over the years.

Mark Westgard:
Pick one.

Steve Burge:
It’s a big bag to pick from and the mistake is maybe let me pick the one that we’re unwinding at the moment that I think there’s a minimum viable size for a plugin.

Mark Westgard:
Okay.

Steve Burge:
Or a product. It needs to be able to support say two developers and maybe a support person. So in order to have a business that is kind of should be its own brand, should be split off from your main efforts. You’re probably looking at 10, 15,000amonth. Now with some effort you can get there, but maybe some plugins just don’t have a big enough audience to get there. And so I think we discovered with logtivity, the activity log we were talking about earlier, that it’s probably best off under the PublishPress umbrella with the existing user base and the existing customers and we’re considering that with at least one of our other plugins too. It’s not really enough to normally big enough to sustain a couple of developers and a support person and also make a profit.

Mark Westgard:
There’s a threshold that, you know, you’ve got to make sure you exceed. I think what’s interesting with my product is I have a core product and then I have. I think there’s like 45 add ons now and. Yeah, and a lot of those add ons are very niche that on their own would not be a tangible business. There’s you know, maybe 100, 2, 3, 400 people that would actually use that add on but as part of the ecosystem it’s worth having. A lot of my integrations are fairly easy to manage and build, so. But I would think that if they were their own business, it just wouldn’t be worth doing.

Steve Burge:
Well, the beauty of a forms plugin is that you really can cut across product categories.

Mark Westgard:
Yeah, yeah.

Steve Burge:
You can be a payment system, you can Be a front end content creation plugin. You can be. I imagine you could probably do events if you wanted to.

Mark Westgard:
Yeah, booking. Yeah, all kinds of stuff, E commerce. The list is endless. I have to cut some things off, you know, some people ask some very niche integration stuff and then get angry with me when I say I won’t build them an add on for it. But I’m like, you know, I love every customer but $59 isn’t going to cover my two weeks of integrating in with your legacy system. So I think when I first started out, probably when you and I were first talking, I was very willing to do anything to keep people happy. And as time has gone on and time is a little bit tighter and you’re a bit more well established, then the ability to do that definitely drops.

Steve Burge:
So maybe that’s the me and you in somewhat similar positions I think in terms of maybe the size of the business and number of users and what we do in terms of jumping in support all the time. Maybe the hardest problem we have to tackle is that product management, the strategy. Like I could probably sit there and bang out support tickets all day and sit there and do the coding, tackle the development problems, but all of those are kind of secondary to the product management part of it. If you end up creating too many brands and some of them are struggling, or if you make too many add ons to your plugin and most of those are hard to maintain and not really used much, you end up with a lot of baggage.

Mark Westgard:
Yeah, I did the wrong thing with a business I had before WS4. I used to have an event management business in London and we were diversifying into so many different brands and we did too much and we just spread ourselves too thin. And that’s why I’ve decided to focus on just one plugin right now because I have so much to do on that. I feel if I. It would be nice to start building something else, but I would just immediately be putting away from my core product right now and I still feel like I’ve got so much I can do. So I think that’s a good tip for people wanting to get into the plugin world. Just stick at it. Get the. It’s amazing how much work goes into a plugin. I mean like the documentation and everything is just immense and you basically become a support company after all. While the. The development tends to tater off after a while. So what’s next for Publish Press? What. What other exciting stuff have we got coming down the pipeline? Or is logtivity Enough for now. It sounds like you’ve got enough on your plate as it is.

Steve Burge:
I think our next step will be to try and create a proper suite of products.

Mark Westgard:
Okay.

Steve Burge:
Our current situation is we have 10 plugins available and I think it probably similar to a lot of plugin companies in of a similar size. You take the example maybe of Barn2 plugins who have lots of plugins. Each one is a Separate plugin or wordcamp.us last year was talking with a company called Kestrel with they were building a big suite of WooCommerce plugins. 10 different plugins do 10 different things. I think what we’re hearing from our customers at the moment is they want a more a tightly integrated suite of products to make our plugins work together, feel like they work together. And so a lot of our efforts this year will be to move from having 10 distinct plugins that don’t really talk to each other that much. So you’d be able to install, publish, press and then click, maybe add five or six or other plugins.

Mark Westgard:
Yeah.

Steve Burge:
You’d have an activity log that would record all of the actions for those plugins. A more unified experience.

Mark Westgard:
Okay, cool. I mean, we’re always launching new features. I always see that. And I know that you guys are always innovating and so, yeah, I look forward to seeing what’s coming down the pipeline. If you could give one piece of advice to another WordPress product developer, other than the what advice you gave to me, I. E. Keep going and then clunk beer glasses with me, what would it be?

Steve Burge:
I think it’s probably what we talked about earlier, is that I’d probably reiterate the advice that you gave that you found you need to be the face of WS form and people want to buy from people they know and trust. You gave the example of ben@rocket.net. i’ve talked to a couple of his customers and I get the impression they have enormous trust in him as the face of the company, as the lead support person. It’s not quite influencer stuff, but there’s a kind of overlap between those Instagram influencer people. People follow them, people will buy them, people trust them. If you’re the face of a WordPress brand, people want to buy their software from people they trust.

Mark Westgard:
Yeah, I think that goes for both customers, but also partnerships and relationships that you build behind the scenes. Right. So you’ve really got to get out there. I know for some people that can be difficult, you know, going out and talking to people, but it really is advantageous to go out there and just join these events. And you know, I like the post dates event. I just on a whim decided, right, I’m going to go to Oklahoma and see who I can talk to.

Steve Burge:
Not the most exciting place. No, no offense to Oklahoma, but yeah.

Mark Westgard:
But it was a good bunch of people. I made some good relationships. In fact, I met you there. I met. I actually got to be friends with Bob from Do the Woo in Oklahoma as well. We had known each other before, but it’s the first time we sat down and had a beer together and yeah, a number of other people there. So in fact, I met the Gravity Forms team there. They’re very nice people too and got to chat to them. So that was exciting. And it was actually at that event as well. It was a moment where I learned that I could give advice to people as well. I was kind of going there expecting to build relationships for myself, but I felt like I helped out quite a few people at that event who were basically like. The one question everyone had at that meeting, which is typical of these events, was how do I get more customers? Which is what everybody wants. Right. So it’s nice to be able to chat about that. But yeah, it was like I say, I think you’re right. You’ve got to build your own personal brand. And that’s where I’m seeing success in the WordPress space, particularly because of the nature of the community. Making yourself approachable and welcoming is definitely the way to go. And where I’ve seen a lot of success in this space.

Steve Burge:
Yeah, well, now you have a podcast. I mean, that’s the first step for most people is personal brands. Right.

Mark Westgard:
But that’s Bob’s fault. He’s, you know, we’re sitting down at lunch and Bob says, right, you’re gonna start a podcast and this is what it’s gonna be about. I’m like, okay, so here we are.

Steve Burge:
You got the personal branding checklist. Check the podcast.

Mark Westgard:
That’s right. I’ve done the podcast now. Yeah. So I’ve just gotta get a few under the belt and then we’ll be off to go. How can our listeners learn more about you and where can they learn more about your products and connect with you?

Steve Burge:
PublishPress.com is our main website. Most of the articles we publish, the podcasts we publish come from there and on social media. I’m mainly on LinkedIn and BlueSky.

Mark Westgard:
Cool. And where can they listen to your new podcast? What is the new podcast called and where can I hear it?

Steve Burge:
Oh, it’s on YouTube on the publish press channel on YouTube.

Mark Westgard:
That’s okay. Cool. Excellent.

Steve Burge:
In terms of putting a face on the business, we’re putting a premium on mainly putting the podcast through YouTube so people can see us and interact with us.

Mark Westgard:
Cool. I think this will be on YouTube too. Bob is going visual now, so our two faces will be on YouTube as well. So check that out.

Steve Burge:
Hey, lucky YouTube viewers.

Mark Westgard:
Yeah, well, thanks for coming on, Steve. It’s been great to catch up because I haven’t spoken to you in a while. I know that we have our kind of mastermind group on Slack, but it’s always nice to see each other in person and thank you for your time. I appreciate it.

Steve Burge:
Awesome. Thanks so much, Mark.