How to Prepare, Network, and Recharge During Business Conferences

Bob Dunn:
Hey, Bob here. Welcome to Open Channels FM. And how you doing, Cami?

Cami McNamara:
I’m doing great. I got a walk in this morning, even though it was, you know, Seattle. I had rain in my face and I made it short, but I got my exercise this morning and, you know, came back to the office looking forward to seeing my friend Bob.

Bob Dunn:
Yeah, cool. Well, we’re set to go. And you came up with a great idea. You know, we’ve been talking or we are going to be talking about habits and stuff, and you shared it with me. So what are we going to talk about?

Cami McNamara:
Well, I thought it would be a good idea for both of us to share our habits for when we’re traveling for work., uh, to conferences and, you know, you and I have spent a lot of time at conferences and I personally know of the equipment that you take with you and I thought that that would be interesting for you to share with folks and then for myself as a freelancer that has a lot of clients, I thought it would be good to share how I like alert them of my trips and what I’m doing and, you know, and then what we do when we’re at the conference, all the people that we meet and, you know, how we spread our time out and networking and learning and, and all that good stuff. So I thought that might be helpful for other folks in our space.

Bob Dunn:
Cool. Sounds like a good deal. So myself, now I don’t have to worry too much because I don’t have clients anymore and I have sponsors. Basically the only thing I need to know or do is be available for hosts because hosts continue to do recordings and stuff in case they run into some kind of glitch. But, you know, I don’t have to prep like you do with a lot of clients. So, so tell us a little bit about that.

Cami McNamara:
Well, it kind of depends on the type of trip that I’m taking, how I prep my clients. So when I’m going to a conference, like I’m going to be going to press conference, In April, I start letting my clients know like months in advance that I am going to be at a conference from this date to this date, and I won’t have regular work hours. So if you have some big project that you’re planning for that window, we need to reschedule it. I also do that for my birthday vacation where I don’t want to work at all. And like, I start telling them months in advance. But for other things like, um, this coming weekend, Ann Marie, who is a web designer that you know from here in Seattle, she’s my buddy. Uh, we’re going to go away for like 3 days to Leavenworth. We’re gonna co-work together. So I’m actually gonna be working. So I’m not alerting my clients of that because I’m gonna have some somewhat regular hours. And you don’t want them to think you’re just off traveling the world all the time. So, you know, it kind of like is a little back and forth with how much do I reveal. And, you know, I do think when I’m going to a conference that I’m bettering my abilities for them. So I like to tell them about that.

Bob Dunn:
Yeah. So do you have— is there kind of gray area if you’re, you know, if something really critical comes up and they think, should I contact you or?

Cami McNamara:
Oh yes. Like if they’re having like the website’s down, I’m on it. Just text me. So, you know, I send, I have a, a client newsletter that I send out every month. So I just make sure I hit them with that. And then I put it on autoresponder when I’m away. It says like, okay, if I’m, I’m away in case they ignored my newsletter, which, you know, but only 75% of them are reading it. And then, um, I make sure that they have my cell phone. And if they’re, if they have, uh, my website’s down and I’ve had it happen and, you know, I’m at the conference with all my stuff or my computer’s in the room if I haven’t brought it with me and I, I deal with emergencies. But if they like need a new page up and forgot to tell me, You know, if it’s not an emergency, it waits. Yeah.

Bob Dunn:
Yeah. I had a, not really necessarily client, but I was at a WooCamp when they were in existence. This was years ago at Nashville. Yeah. And, or actually it might’ve been the San Francisco one. I can’t remember which one it was, but I did something screwy to my DNS or I don’t know what I did. And I was launching something. At the site. And I basically wanted, you know, people to be able to go to my site if I’m talking to people. And it was down, it went down. And for the life of me, I cannot remember who, if, who was there, but I got online with my hosting support and whoever my host was at that time. And I was going back and forth in the chat and they finally said, you know, Bob, we’re here at BooComp. Why don’t you just bring it down to the booth, your computer, and we’ll get it figured out. So I went out of my room back there because I didn’t want to disturb them with it. I thought, you know, they’re busy doing their thing and stuff at their booth. But that was pretty cool. They invited me. So that was all good. So is there any other things you can recommend as far as that pre, especially somebody that’s just running a business by themselves?

Cami McNamara:
Yeah, I usually start, you know, if I’m going to be taking 3 days off or something, I try to work a little extra a couple of weeks before my trip to try to, you know, not my, my docket’s never empty, but I try to get enough of it cleaned up. So when I’m there, I could be present. In the talks and not feeling like, oh, I need to work every in-between moment. Because, you know, when you’re at a conference, you’re just getting barraged with information, with, uh, great meetings with old friends, and it’s taxing on you. So if you are shifting from that to work, the entire time, like at every break you’re working or something, you just end up exhausted by the end of the conference. So I try to just work a little extra, maybe a Saturday or two ahead of the trip to make sure that, you know, I can be present when I’m there.

Bob Dunn:
Right, right. Yeah, that can be because a conference is exhausting enough. You know, just being on and doing things and throwing in other little things, having to deal with clients and stuff. And I know some people that do that. I know Mark Westguard from WS Form, he’s sometimes answering support tickets, you know, he’s always—

Cami McNamara:
Yeah, always on it. Yeah. At WordCamp Portland this year, you know, a bunch of people in WebCami Cafe, we were all like going in groups to everything. And we actually set aside time to co-work at one of the tables in the, you know, it was like, okay, everyone, let’s meet. And for an hour, we’ll just co-work. And it was great. We had a good time. We made it a social event. So it worked out well.

Bob Dunn:
So when you get, when you’re preparing, do you, do you have a checklist? To make sure you don’t miss anything to take. I mean, that sounds really like an obvious thing, but I ended up having to start doing that.

Cami McNamara:
Well, yeah, you have like all this equipment because you’re always podcasting on the road. And I’m just going to share with everyone that I remember. So I remember the first time I was ever on a podcast was 2017 at Lewis Clark College in Portland, Oregon for WordCamp. And Bob had his iPhone and a little microphone that plugged into the bottom of the— and that was his podcast setup for that. And like, you interviewed me in the hallway, you know, it was totally hallway chat. Um, and, but then I have also seen you packed up to go on the train trip with like a giant suitcase.

Bob Dunn:
Oh, that was horrible.

Cami McNamara:
So I imagine that you have to have, I, I don’t really have to do that. It’s like laptop, you know, uh, charger, just, I just kind of keep, and that’s kind of a constant in my life to have like that coffee shop backpack. So, um, for me, it’s more just about getting a suitcase out during the week, throwing things at it. And then the night before, I pack it all up.

Bob Dunn:
Yeah, I know I have. I used to take a lot more. And like the train trip, that’s a good example. I had a soundboard and I was doing it. I, you know, bringing the soundboard at that point was I’d get higher quality and also it was kind of eye candy. So if I was doing a podcast like I was doing on the train, you know, I had this soundboard and everything in my mic. And I made the mistake for, I can’t remember which WordCamp it was, but I decided, oh no, it was actually CloudFest, which as we speak right now, I’m at CloudFest, which I’m not right now, but I will be. So when you’re listening to that, I will be at a conference. But the very first CloudFest, I took my soundboard there because I, again, I wanted to kind of have the effect for some cameras and shots and everything. And what happened is I decided for once, it’s in a suitcase that’s built for this soundboard and mic. So it’s padded, it’s a hard case, and it’s really heavy to lug around. You probably remember. I remember.

Cami McNamara:
Yeah.

Bob Dunn:
Yeah. Yeah. Cause it’s not on wheels. I got it. I got one that wasn’t, which was a mistake. And what happened was I checked it in and it worked out fine, but when I checked it in coming back, something broke on it and I ended up having, it was still kind of working, but I had to replace it and stuff and taking all that stuff is just like insane. So I’ve gotten it down to now, for example, at CloudFest, I’m just bringing a, I have a camera, video camera that has kind of a— it sits on this tripod that has controls on it. I bring my 3 little small square GoRode, their receivers and stuff. And I just bring those things now because it’s just— there’s so much junk you can bring. And then of course, I have to make sure I have all the you know, the right cords, right this, right that. And then, yeah, and then the laptop and stuff. So I’m not bringing as much stuff these days when I do go to conference, even though I have podcast, because like at CloudFest, they have a podcast studio that I’m using a couple times.

Cami McNamara:
Yeah, they had that at WordCamp US too. And I feel like, you know, as things change and, uh, it’s probably going to be a something you see at all conferences, right? Did they have equipment in there that you get to—

Bob Dunn:
They actually have a room. It’s really a cool room. It’s on the— CloudFest is at Europa-Park in Germany. It’s near a town called Rust. And they actually have a professional studio that’s all set up with microphones and video and all this stuff. And they basically gave media sponsors or media partners, I should say, a spot. And I was able to actually get two of them because I’m doing an extra one. And so you have everything there for you and it’s great. And yeah, and then I’ll have my other equipment if I decide to do other things. But I’ve found also that it’s part of my prep used to be trying to get people to Hey, let’s do a podcast while we’re there. But I learned one or two times that it’s more of a hassle than anything because, you know, when you’re at a conference to have to be somewhere at a certain time kind of sucks. You, you know, you’re in a conversation with somebody and the thing comes up and like, oh, now I got to go do this. So, right. After a while, I learned that, hey, you know, I’m not going to book them. I mean, if I happen to run into somebody, I got my equipment. If you want to sit down for 15 minutes and talk, that’s great. But, you know, unless it’s something like at Cloud First Share where I actually booked two of them for that room, the rest of the time I’ll just be roaming around.

Cami McNamara:
So, yeah, you know, I think it’s a, I think it’s a good rule. Not to book things when you go to a conference. And, you know, a lot of people will reach out to you in advance and they’ve got a, you know, a calendar to book and everything else. And while I think that’s a good idea, it sounds like a good idea, when you get to the conference, it’s not because things always come up. And I like to have a reschedule when I get there so I can wing it and do whatever happens, whatever comes up that happens. So, you know, like I might plan lunch ahead with you, like something like that. But, uh, a lot of vendors will offer to meet with you and things like that. And if you don’t, if you’re not careful, you end up filling up your calendar the whole time you’re there and you just don’t have any downtime. And you’re going to need that downtime because you’re, like you said before, you’re on the whole time and it’s just exhausting. Yeah.

Bob Dunn:
The interesting thing about CloudFest is it’s a really, it’s huge, first of all, for people that don’t know what it is. It’s like, I think there’s expected 12,000, 13,000 people.

Cami McNamara:
This year. Wow.

Bob Dunn:
Oh my God. No. Oh my God. Yeah. And it’s actually in a theme park. So you’re in this theme park and they basically just take over this theme park for a week. And CloudFest is really business-oriented. I mean, they have tons of sessions and things going on, but people go there to make deals, sign contracts. So some people will be just booked with meetings. You’ll run into somebody you know, and they’ll say, oh, I gotta run. I got my next meeting going on. So a lot of them go, yeah, go there, unlike a WordCamp where you don’t, you know, you want to maybe have, again, like you said, more of a flexible schedule. So it’s, yeah, it’s something I haven’t done. I did a calendar this time and I haven’t really talked to anybody about, you know, booking a spot. If somebody I really wanted to make sure and meet and sit down with, if they wanted to book a spot, I probably would, but between the hackathon that they have and everything else, I’m there for a week, so there’s a lot of time to do stuff.

Cami McNamara:
That’s bigger than my hometown, Bob.

Bob Dunn:
Yeah, I know, I know. There’s a lot of people. It’s just, it’s a crazy time. It’s something that’s, you know, it’s one of those conferences, and this is something to share with people, is I went to it, I wasn’t able to go to it last year, but the year before I was. And the first time I went to it, I really needed to get a feel of what this conference was. So I didn’t plan a lot of stuff. I had to see how, just how it went, because this is, you know, you’ve got a lot of people. So this year I’m a lot more prepared. I know what to do and what not to do. And I feel like, you know, I kind of have an agenda in my mind, but it’s a, I don’t know if you want to say a scattered agenda because it’s just telling me to, you know, you’re there for a long time and to not push it and run and expect to do everything, you know, the first 2, 3 days. You’ve got some time to spread it out. So you have time to really take breaks and kind of catch up on just, you know, let your brain settle for a bit.

Cami McNamara:
Yeah, well, in WordCamp in Maryland, in DC, when we had that WordCamp, like, I like went back to my room, which took like 25 minutes to get back to your room. It was all in the same building. Man, that place was huge. Like, I had to work in a nap every day. Like, that was a very tiring WordCamp. It was enjoyable. But because the venue was just a sprawling, um, location and, you know, you were going, um, all over the place at that event. I, Adam Warner and I spent a day in, in DC and we did the Capitol tour. Like, so we like totally did a side, uh, trip into DC to enjoy that while we were there too.

Bob Dunn:
Yeah. Yeah. Hey, what’s interesting about CloudFest is that it’s in a huge theme park, like one of the biggest theme parks in Europe. So you’re at like, I don’t know, there’s 6, 7 hotels and there’s, you know, they have the main event and they have a couple of hotels that have other things going on. So you’re able to get around to everything, but it’s very it’s, yeah, it’s spread out and spread out. Yeah.

Cami McNamara:
Yeah.

Bob Dunn:
But they amazingly, they make it really work well and they put things, you know, where you can get to them easily and stuff. But, um, yeah, it’s, it’s quite an experience.

Cami McNamara:
Yeah. So wear comfortable shoes. And if you like to track your steps, make sure you’ve got your Fitbit or your Apple Watch or whatever geared up. And you can expect to do 14,000 to 20,000 steps a day based on whatever conference you’re at.

Bob Dunn:
Yeah. Yeah. And watch out for that. I mean, for me, I’m, I’m slowing down more. So I’m looking to sit down, you know, rest more and not push myself and stuff. And one thing I think some people don’t realize is often these things you’re standing on cement floors and it doesn’t hit you till you’ve stood for quite a long time. And then like by the end of the day, you’re thinking, whoa, you know, your feet are killing you and stuff. So moving around, making sure you sit down. Yeah. Just taking breaks and stuff.

Cami McNamara:
Yeah. 100%. And the breaks are an opportunity for you to spend time with your friends that you only see once a year.

Bob Dunn:
Yeah, and this is very, this is a conference that’s, you know, kind of stepping out of the WordPress bubble or whatever you want to say. So I’m anxious to meet a lot of new people. That’s kind of my goal is to not hang with, you know, everybody I know all the time to, yeah, to find people.

Cami McNamara:
Make new contacts and stuff.

Bob Dunn:
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Cami McNamara:
Yeah, so while you’re going to this giant conference, I’m going to the opposite. I’m going to a small conference. So, Press Conf is a smaller conference, although I would say it’s small and mighty because, you know, the networking there is fantastic and the venue is really nice. And for me, it’s going to be kind of like dual vacation slash conference just because of the setting that it’s in.

Bob Dunn:
So, so another thing is stay hydrated. I don’t care what conference you go to that, That, that’s the easiest thing, and that’s probably one of the worst. I mean, if you’re talking about habits, that’s the worst one I have there, is to mentally remember to drink water, you know, and not at a point go, ah, my, my throat’s so dry because I haven’t drank water for 4 hours or some crazy, right?

Cami McNamara:
And along that, you have to not overcaffeinate because that’ll wreck your trip too if you drink 8 cups of coffee before noon because, you know, they all have a coffee station and you, you know, you’re just sort of in the mode of that. So, that’s something to be careful of and that can make you dehydrated too.

Bob Dunn:
Yeah. And then, those parties.

Cami McNamara:
The parties. Perhaps it’s not the best time to like go back to your college days. Yeah, yeah, no kidding. Everything in moderation.

Bob Dunn:
Yeah, yeah, that’s really it. And, you know, I think the other thing is, and kind of like I was just saying with CloudFest, is I think you, you tend to kind of that comfort zone of hanging around with your friends or people you know and stuff. And, you know, there’s got to be a nice balance. I I always tell people, you know, everybody’s there to meet people. Nobody’s going to look at you like, you know, why are you talking to me or anything? So I kind of, you know, I try to keep my eyes open and see if somebody— I mean, I don’t want to also put somebody on the spot like they have to talk to me or something or, you know, go up and force conversation. But it’s so it’s kind of that, again, a little bit of gray area, kind of just whatever you feel, you know, if it feels right, then.

Cami McNamara:
Yeah. A good tip is also to take pictures of people’s badges that you meet.

Bob Dunn:
Oh, I do that all the time.

Cami McNamara:
Because then you can go back to your social media and go like, oh, it is that person that I’ve interacted with on Twitter or wherever. And, you know, and you put the, you put the face with the online persona that you may have known for a long time. And it doesn’t always come to you, right? Like their name and their handle might be totally different. So that’s another good tip. And then at the end, you can, you know, you have a record of the people you might want to reach out to later.

Bob Dunn:
Yeah. When I started doing that, I was taking a picture. I’d tell them kind of hold the badge out and then I’d get back. I’d have all these badges. And I forget who the face was, you know, it was like, so then I realized, hey, just take a picture of them. I’ll zoom in on the badge or something.

Cami McNamara:
That’s a really good idea. I will say taking pictures with your friends is so important and fun to do and just nice to have that record. So, uh, you can’t see over here behind me, but I’ve got a photo of us in Maryland now up on my wall over here. And like, I made a collage of like conference pictures and it’s just a nice record to know you can go back in time. And, you know, I wish I had been taking pictures in 2013 when I went to that first WordCamp. Yeah.

Bob Dunn:
You know, I always suggest, you know, go and talk to the vendors, you know, just recognize they’re there because, you know, they’re putting a lot of money into this and they’re not going— a lot of them are just not going to shove something down your throat and hard sell you there. They’re to meet people there and you actually might make a great connection or who knows where the conversation could lead. So don’t, you know, think, oh, I don’t want to go because they’re all just pitching their wares here. But, you know, again, They’re partly responsible or hugely responsible for the event, for the money. Yeah.

Cami McNamara:
Well, as you know, I was a GoDaddy Pro Ambassador for a while, just as a customer, and I worked the booth at Nashville and at St. Louis. As a GoDaddy Ambassador, not that That was the most fun that I have ever had at WordCamp because everybody came to talk. Um, the friends that I made at GoDaddy that work there are lifelong friends. And, um, you know, the amount of work that just goes into it, like these days, I think they have people setting up the booths, right? But when I was doing it, we were setting up the booth. Which was like a big jigsaw puzzle and, you know, set up and tear down and, you know, you’re on your feet and you’re just talking to people. I met some of the coolest people, like bloggers that were traveling the world to, you know, I remember meeting an older man who had like, I don’t know, 1,500 domain names or something. Right. He just, It has great cover. Like, what are you doing with all of those? So just great conversations. So the sponsor area to me is like the highlight. I love going to the sponsor area.

Bob Dunn:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I always make it, except like at huge conferences like this one I’m at as this is, you know, playing, is there’s a lot of them. They have tons of— and you’ve got these huge huge building of just, I mean, you don’t hit every one of them because it would just be—

Cami McNamara:
more like a—

Bob Dunn:
yeah, trade show. But I, I went around and introduced, and it was really interesting because I was in a position to introduce myself as a media partner, and I would just go up to them and say, you know, I just wanted to say hi, I’m the media partner here. And it got me to meet some people. It was a nice segue. To talk to some of them because most of them I would never use their service because it’s a lot of cloud hosting. It’s just all this. Yeah, it’s services I’d never need or use, but also I had good conversations. So it’s, yeah, it’s always worth checking them out.

Cami McNamara:
Well, and then there’s the swag element. Now I am not one of the people who grab every bit of swag that I can.

Bob Dunn:
Yeah.

Cami McNamara:
Yeah. I have friends. I have friends who are like, you know, lay it all out on the bed at the end and take the picture. And it’s just like, but you know, it’s very true that that’s kind of like the heartbeat of what’s happening at the conference is that those in-between times when you can go and like you said, find that person who’s, you know, maybe it’s a plugin developer or something. And you really admire and what they’ve done has made a difference in your business or your life or your podcast or whatever. And it feels good to tell them thank you.

Bob Dunn:
Yeah, it really does.

Cami McNamara:
Yeah.

Bob Dunn:
You can’t beat that in real life, you know, connection there by saying that. So, so what, so what do you do when you get back?

Cami McNamara:
Well, I try to build in a light day of work. The next, you know, so if I’m coming home on a Sunday and I’m starting work on Monday, uh, I, I not scheduled any appointments or anything. So I try to ease back into it because you don’t realize how exhausted you are until you get home. And I always immediately unpack. So I’m not leaving my bag there, like, uh, unless I have another You know, back in the day, it could be a trip the next week, you know, for a while there. Um, before COVID um, things are getting a little bit better there, but, uh, I just try to get it all unpacked. Doesn’t mean I’m doing my laundry or anything, but put everything back, get ready for the work week, but I ease into it. I don’t plan like 5 client appointments the first Monday after a conference.

Bob Dunn:
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And then there’s kind of going through the contacts and trying to wrap your brain around any notes you made or something you want to remind yourself about and stuff. So yeah, it can take, it can take a little bit of time to kind of organize yourself and get back into the groove.

Cami McNamara:
Well, and plus the joys of travel, right? So like in the old days, I would, you know, try to work on the airplane and I just stopped doing that completely because it’s very distracting. You know, you’ve got, you just have a small area, the Wi-Fi usually sucks. I mean, just the whole gamut. So like by the time you get your computer open and you’re trying to go through emails and each one is taking like 3 minutes to open, just look out the window, have a drink, eat your snack, take a nap, talk to the person next to you. Just don’t, you know, it just is so hard to focus on work when you’re actually on the move.

Bob Dunn:
Yeah, yeah. I’ve done it a little bit more when I’ve done the real long-haul flights, like international flights. Right, that’s a little bit different. But the shorter ones, you might as well, you know, by the time you get settled down, especially for flying maybe a couple hours or even 3 hours, it’s not really worth it. So yeah, that’s for sure. Especially with the Wi-Fi, that sucks.

Cami McNamara:
So I wish they would fix that. I feel like there have been a couple of flights that I took that had pretty decent Wi-Fi, but yeah, every once in a while, it’s not often. And, uh, you know, if you’re paying, you’re paying for it each time too.

Bob Dunn:
So exactly. Yep. Yep. So yeah, it’s, um, I think it’s just kind of overall, just, you know, be a bit organized, but also, you know, enjoy yourself.

Cami McNamara:
Right. Don’t put a lot of pressure on yourself. If you, it’s okay to sneak back to your room and take a 20-minute nap. Like that’ll do wonders for you. Right. And you know, it just, uh, it, yeah. And it’s okay to not say yes to every event afterwards too. Um, you know, uh, the last in, in DC when we had the, the main party. I remember going and then only staying for about an hour and heading back to the hotel and just, I like had the best conversation with Adam who had also, he was leaving very early in the morning and, you know, it was just kind of one of the, one of the best decisions was not to go to the giant party and just spend time talking to my good friend while we were at the same place.

Bob Dunn:
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And that’s how I— there’s been a couple of times I even, you know, didn’t go to the closing party or something. I was just too exhausted by then. So, and at the CloudFest, they have lots of parties. They have a street party with thousands of people and a band and everything. And it’s like, you know, some people I swear must not sleep for an entire week there. So, but I will, I’ll sleep.

Cami McNamara:
I have seen videos of those parties. Yeah. I, Um, it’s a lot of loud music, loud music.

Bob Dunn:
Yeah. Yeah. So, well, cool. Well, everyone, I hope, you know, you picked up something from this. It’s, uh, yeah, it’s just, and you’re gonna, you know, if you don’t do it a lot or if you’re just starting travel, especially to conferences, you know, you just pick up on things every time you’re going to kind of find what works best for you because you can’t expect especially if you’re going to a big conference for the first time, you know, you almost have to experience it and yeah, kind of find your way around and stuff. And then maybe if you return to that kind of conference again, you have a little bit more clearer picture of what to do and how to pace yourself.

Cami McNamara:
Yeah. And budget for it all year, because I know for me as a solopreneur, Um, you know, it was difficult the first time I paid for myself to go a long ways away, go to WordCamp and, you know, it costs $3,000 by the time you paid for your hotel and everything. But do, but budget for it because it, it’s really worth it. And then you get to write it off on your taxes. And that is a little bonus, uh, on its own here, here in the States. Right. And. So you get that money back in a different way. It just can be a difficult decision when you’re self-employed to make that leap, but everybody should do it once.

Bob Dunn:
Yeah, exactly. Well, cool. Well, I think that’s it. And yeah, next month we’ll come back with some other topic. We don’t know what that is yet, but I’m sure it’ll be great.

Cami McNamara:
Well, and, and safe travels to you, you know, to your conference. And I’ll, I’ll be going to Press Comp in April. So yeah, we’ll maybe have stuff to talk about regarding that. So we’ll see.

Bob Dunn:
All right. Okay. Thanks everyone for listening and thank you, Cami.

Cami McNamara:
Yeah. Thanks, Bob. It was great to see you.