How a Global Cake Brand Was Built Using Open Source Communities

Abha Thakor:
You’re listening to the Open Makers Channel as part of Open Channels fm. And today we’ve got a very different show for you. I’m Abba Thakor and in the studio I have a cake baker. Now, those of you that listen to this show regularly, you’ll know that food always comes part of these shows. I’ve done one better today I’ve actually found a baker and we’re going to talk about WordPress and we’re going to talk about WooCommerce. What could be better? So get yourselves ready, put that kettle on. If you’ve got a piece of cake, this is the time to put it on your plate. And if not, I’ll apologize now because we’re going to talk a lot about cake. So welcome Precious. Welcome to our studio for the WordPress way.

Precious Gough:
Oh, thank you for having me. I’m really excited to be here and to share my journey with you all.

Abha Thakor:
And interestingly, we do a lot of research for this show. It doesn’t always involve eating cake, but surprisingly for this particular episode it did. And not just any cake, but cake in a jar. Yes, you heard it right. Cake in a jar. And not only that, but it’s Cake in a Jar available on WooCommerce. What could be better? Precious, you’re actually a nurse by training, so I wasn’t really expecting to be talking to you today on the show about cake. I kind of thought maybe that’s my other shows about AI and health. But no, we’re talking about products and how open source can actually help bring those ideas, those dreams, those shops that you’ve always wanted to have to life. And in your case, that is exactly what has happened. So, Precious, tell us just when you had the idea to have a shop and to have that shop somewhere where you could become a contributor and had a global presence.

Precious Gough:
Yeah. So Cakes in a Jar did start off by me making cakes for my family, for people were ordering cakes and I thought, oh, this will be a good way to go. I’ve working as a nurse, I think I See a lot of people at their worst times. So I was trying to look for something that I could do that will be exciting, that will come to people at a very difficult time or at their most pleasant times. So I started making cakes and I thought, oh, this is a very good outlet for me. So that’s how it started. And then Covid happened. And when Covid happened I was like, oh, my dream of becoming a little cake cafe place has been shut down. But where there’s a will, there’s a way. And I bumped into this thing, I think it was an American concept when I first saw it, of doing cakes in a jar. And I thought this could work because you know you are sending cakes by posts. I don’t have to worry about the presentation when it gets there, there. And when you open the cake, it still will have a very good presentation in it. So I started doing it for family and friends and then people started catching onto it and they loved it because during COVID we were so separated and so isolated and it kind of brought communities together. So if I wanted to say hi or happy birthday to somebody that I couldn’t visit, I would send them a box of cakes. And that’s how it really, really started. And before you knew it, people were having baby showers, but nobody was allowed to the baby showers. So they would order sort of kind of cake to be sent to the mother or to be sent to people that sent presents through post to say thank you for your presents. And it just grew from there. So I needed a platform where I could spread it more widely to people. So WooCommerce, sort of kind of getting the website, that was my next level to get that sort of open to people. So that’s how I started. And then I started looking into websites and I’m nowhere near a tech person. But yeah, now I’m going to follow.

Abha Thakor:
Up on this idea about where there’s a will, there’s a way. Because obviously we’re called the WordPress way show because we love to share examples, case studies, really insightful and inspiring stories just like yours, Precious. And for you, that way was really important. Choosing the right platform that you could grow with, that your business could grow with, but also that was doing some good globally because your background, you now live in Sussex in England, but you’re originally from, from Zimbabwe. So this idea that you had with, with cakes is the long term plan that you’d want to be able to have a shop, a store that would sell globally as well, maybe not just the cakes, because I Know that you do lots of other things as well online, including a very beautiful textile line that you have created, which brings in the culture of the southern art form from South Africa as well.

Precious Gough:
Yes, it does. The way I can sell a lot to everybody can see, I think again, when we look at it from when Covid happened, I tend to do markets. And when you do markets, people that are coming to you, they’re coming and seeing you face to face. But the world changed since 2020, whereby we have become more electronic, more into IT or technology or, you know, E commerce was the new trend. So having that sort of kind of presence electronically whereby everybody could see me and still feel the same way and to want to order the cakes, that was really, really important. And for me to share my. And to share my story. And going back to what you were saying in terms of the designs that I created, again, that was also triggered by Covid with me trying to get to that creative side and design something that sort of kind of ties together two cultures. So tying my Zimbabwean African heritage together with me living here in the UK and trying to get kind of something that will really resemble me, who I am. And because it was all around the kitchen, so I designed something whereby you could have oven gloves to use in the kitchen.

Abha Thakor:
Sounds perfect. Just thinking about how your products can come together, what else you can diversify into is how business and commerce grow. Now, you talked about markets now markets and a very different environment to having a website in some things. Did you carry through some of the things that you considered when you had a market presence into your website choices?

Precious Gough:
Yes, I did. I think it was more of like, for example, when I was building my cakes in a jar, when you go in there, everybody, like, wants to have a choice. So building is sort of kind of where you can build your own box. So I’ve got eight flavors, and I’m hoping to have more flavors as time goes on. And at the market, people can see what they’ve got. They can see the choices, and they can pick up like, I’ll have a chocolate, I’ll have lemon, and they can see all that. So I wanted that sort of kind of to be transferred over so that they can still have that choice to build what they want. So when you go onto our website, you can go to build a box and you can pick up chocolate, vanilla, and to make up your box the same way as you would if you are choosing from my market store.

Abha Thakor:
Now, listeners, if you have just joined us and you’ve just heard all the different wonderful flavors of cakes. You haven’t joined the wrong place. You are listening to the WordPress way. And we have baker Precious Gough here with us talking about her cakes in a jar. That idea, Precious, that you need to think about how your business is seen in multiple formats. You need to think about how it looks on a market stall, how it looks in a shop, what it might look like on an online presence, but also where you’re selling items through other third party, potentially websites or stores. Was that really important to you that you wanted it to have that uniform brand that still referred to who you were and what you wanted to do with it?

Precious Gough:
Oh, definitely. If you come to see me when I’m working on the stores or when I’m on the stores, the way I dress my tables, I’m very bright. I mean you can see me a mile away. It’s very bright, it’s very inviting. So the same way as I had the website, when you go to the website, I’m hoping that that sort of follows through in terms of how it looks when you go onto the landing page, how sort of bright everything is and how you’re able to choose and make choices around it. So that really has been important so that you can get an essence of who I am and what the product is all about.

Abha Thakor:
I know when we’re working with customers about their branding, quite often it can be quite bland what they want to do because it takes away all their personality. It’s what they think they should be like the companies they’re trying to copy. And you lose why you would go to this company. So it’s absolutely wonderful to hear you talk about keeping that identity, keeping what makes your products unique, that sense of color, that sense of fun, making sure that you have that vibrancy through everything, even if it’s items that are being sold in other shops, physical shops as well as online stores. Do you get a lot of pushback on that do sometimes when you’re working with some of the very big clients that you have worked with, where you’ve had a pop up shop in some of the big stores, do you get some pushback on trying to conform or do you feel that in today’s commerce world the big shops are a little bit more understanding about keeping that unique identity?

Precious Gough:
I think the big shops now they are turning to sort of kind of loving the small businesses as you want because we’ve got that sort of kind of, oh, how do I describe it? That uniqueness that, that we’re coming in with rather than everything of ours being so manufactured or looking very much like uniforms. Just like they like that uniqueness that you’re bringing to theirselves. So for example, I did a lot of like, I’ve done a couple of pop up shops. Pop up shops with John Lewis. And you go into John Lewis and. And I did some in Chichester. And the first thing that you saw as you come into John Lewis was my very bright and vibrant colors of my designs. And that was very unique in terms of like if you go into, into John Lewis, I could have gone for something much more pastel colors because they do quite a lot of pastel colors and stuff. So bringing that kind of vibrancy and accepting that difference with the heritage thing, you know, it gives us a voice. So rather than, I think sometimes when you look at big companies there is that element of, you know, they, they engulf the small businesses and they can’t move. But there was almost kind of that working together with them and them showcasing me and not showcasing me like as in John Lewis, but showcasing me as Precious as in PM Home.

Abha Thakor:
So yeah, and I think that’s important and I think it’s also about thinking when you’re putting products together for market, what do you want potential customers to take away with them? Apart from your products, of course. Do you want them to think, oh yes, I’ll go on their website, I’ll scan that QR code and get a completely different experience so they don’t have any context or link back to the person they saw or the displays that they so admired. And it’s really important if you are setting up a WooCommerce store to think about capturing that identity but having it flow through everything so that people have that sense of fun. Precious has a website that we’re going to have a bit of a look at as well as part of this. And in that website you are greeted with cakes. Absolutely. Filled to the brim with cake. Different layers of cake, different colors. There is nothing bland about the colors that are being used on this site. As we’ve talked about, that’s really important when we’re using and trying to promote what our identity of our business is going forward. The other joy that Precious has had is that she’s used an open source platform where that was possible. She didn’t have to go and try and reinvent everything from scratch. She was able to look at ideas that had been done by thousands of other people. You look at themes, plugins that she might want use the open source WooCommerce as well. And Join it all together to be something that was unique to her, but also part of this living, breathing, continuously changing open source space that WordPress and WooCommerce are part of.

Abha Thakor:
Precious We’ve talked about before the show that you wanted to be part of something that was growing. You didn’t want to be part of anything that was going to be just stuck in one moment in time. You’ve obviously done so many things in your career and you still are a working community nurse in the NHS system, but also now doing textiles, doing things, products for the house and also these wonderful new cake ideas. Do you think that using things like open source just gives you that bit of extra flexibility and that ability to not be confined by, well, this is me, I’m offering cakes and I can’t do anything else. Does it give you that ability to be inspired by the next thing that you want to do and to keep growing your businesses?

Precious Gough:
Oh, definitely it does. When I started thinking, because I think initially when I first started it was more about I was doing something because I wanted to make a mark around who I am and leave some kind of legacy. Because I was thinking about my kids at that time and I was thinking like, I would like to do something whereby my kids later on they will say, actually, you know, I did this and I think it all comes to being like, who are you and what’s your purpose here? You know, and I love my job as a nurse, but I think for me I needed to do something that speaks deeper into me and that looks into my children and a legacy for them. So when I started looking at that, I started looking at other companies and things and if you look at things like, and, and this is an example that I always use which is quite. Which my kids like always laugh at but it’s like if you’re looking at things like Kit Kat, you know, or Nestle or the chocolate brands, like, we kind of. We have these chocolates every day and don’t even think about when it first started. You know, they started somewhere and now they’re big brands that, you know, you don’t even think twice about them. I understand that growing, growing and going into a business, there is an element whereby I think you’ve had the saying that we plant seeds of trees, whereby we might not be able to sit under the shade. But I think I’m looking at it as like, you know, hopefully in my lifetime I will be able to see this business grow and get to the point whereby I can sit under its shade. But if I’m not, my children will be able to say, I might be one of those companies whereby you see, oh, established in 2020, in the year 3000 or something. Yeah, but this is why everything is really important to me. This is why the platform that I use are important for me, because I’m not trying to start up something that I’m thinking, oh, you know, I’m going to be tired of it and I want it to. It’s going to close in 10 years or in 5 years or in the next year, or it’s just a fling or a phase that I’m going through, whether it’s menopausal and midlife crisis. No, I’m thinking about something that is sustainable, something that will last the test of time. So even the way my recipes are, it’s taken me a long time for me to get them right in the jars. So even when I’m losing the platforms, like in business, in terms of how am I doing it, we’re constantly moving things around. We’re constantly thinking of how can we develop and how can we. How can the website help us do that? And I think if you go to the website today, you see that from today we’ve got a new page on which caters to corporate, because that was never there because now I’m finding that I’m getting bigger orders from companies that want to say thank you and Merry Christmas to their staff at the end of the year. So they are ordering quite a lot of jars which they want to gift to their staff. So, yeah, that’s how I was seeing all this.

Abha Thakor:
And that growth is really, is possible when you use open source, because you’re growing with the software, you’re growing with the millions and millions of contributors all around the world who contribute to make WordPress to make WooCommerce and we don’t often have contributor days as part of the show, but we’ve actually been using one for this particular show. And Precious, who wanted to be a contributor to the project, has joined today. So that’s been a real wonderful little story. And very keen on encouraging other women in particular to find the platform as a way that they can start planning things that they want to do, particularly if they’re returning to work after some time, and to practice ideas, to test what they might want to put out. And of course, the beauty of WordPress is that we have the WordPress playground as well, which if you don’t know what that is, then go to the website for OpenChannels FM and click on our show from last month and you’ll be able to hear all about how WordPress Playground allows you to test. It allows you to put a site up together within such a short amount of time and test your ideas, get a feel for your project, your vision actually becoming real. And we know that’s what Precious did. She did just that, she drew some ideas, she put some things together, she had a practice in her own kitchen, got her kids to be the guinea pig on testing her cakes, and also did an awful lot of market research with that. And I think that’s one of the things that we’re really keen to do with this show is to highlight the how you can use WordPress, how you can use WooCommerce, how you can use the whole open source platforms that exist out there to create something quite amazing and just to maybe give you that bit of encouragement, that inspiration, take you to that level, one, to build that first idea. And as Precious has done, she’s then gone on to create new ideas that also map into that. Precious, we’ve looked at some of the products that you’ve been bringing to market. Now at the bottom of your website it says that your products are made with love. Obviously that’s not necessarily an ingredient that people can look at in the ingredients list for the cakes, but I know that something that you feel very strongly about that being creative, going to market, especially if you go into market online, needs to still have that heart. It needs to demonstrate that heart. Why do you think that is so important? And is there something that you would like to recommend to people who are considering, you know, starting their first online shop?

Precious Gough:
Yes, Made with love. I know when I first pitched it to my guys to say like, you know, like this, oh God, everybody says that. Everybody says that. Why would you say that? And for me, it’s been very true in everything that I do. And I think if you’re gonna go into business, whatever business you’re gonna go into, if your heart is not into it, it’s gonna be very difficult for you to see the vision or to have a vision of where you wanna go. And I feel that because for me, it feels like it’s my baby. I love what I do. I love baking, I love creating. So when I do those things, I want everybody else to be able to tap into it and taste my cake and buy my cake. But how am I gonna get it to you guys if I don’t put in the amount of love and the amount of care that I do into it? So I can frustrate people like when they put in a certain color on my background on my website and I’m go, no, that’s not right. But it’s because it’s the passion. Passion pushes me and it makes me think outside the box. It makes me look at it from the, how can I make this better? How can I take it a bit further? So I think anybody who’s going to go into business having the passion for it I think will help because having your own business is very difficult. There’s a lot of like, besides the love and wanting it, there’s a lot of hard work into doing it. There’s a lot of marketing you need to do, there’s a lot of research you need to go into it. So you need to have something that will cut you above the rest, you know, so whether it is the front of your shop, whether it was how you look like, you know, what it looks like when people go in the experience that people will get in there. I want people to feel the love when they have my cake. I want them, when they order, when they go onto the website, I want them to have a look at the website, whether it is the PM home one, and see the brilliance, the color and really feel that love. Because I think if it doesn’t come through, I don’t know, I feel that, you know, you might not be able to see or to feel what I’m feeling and my passion would just die.

Abha Thakor:
I think tasting the cake would probably help too. And yeah, just so people are thinking, oh, they’ve got to have lots of cake in the studio. We actually have been quite good and we haven’t. We might have to send Bob some cake. But we haven’t been naughty, have we? We’ve had completely sensible and just got water and tea. I think that is right. I think we have to be able to show the passion we have for a product, for the way it’s been made, for the things that are in it, the materials, the processes, the ideas behind it. And it’s important not to lose that passion as we add more products as we diversify also in hard times, because it’s not a particularly easy market at the moment. And I think that’s where hopefully, and I hope that this is precious, something that you will find by talking to other people. When you do use an open source product, you have that benefit that you don’t quite have when you’re using a standard product because you have a whole community out there who have been through similar challenges, who’ve had ideas that they wanted to do and then found solutions. Now that could be using the blocks, which I know you love precious on WordPress. So the idea of being able to separate little content ideas easily and then put them in so that the different audiences can respond, react and enjoy the things that matter to them. The other thing that is really important with WordPress is that you can be part of your local community. So if you are somebody who has started up a business, be it this year or previous years, maybe Even it’s going 25 years, there is a wonderful community out there that you can join now that can be remotely online or it can be by going to the Meetup and the WordPress listings and finding who else is using this, who else is using these products and where can I join in chatting to them about their ideas. And that is a way that people can grow too. And I know Precious, that’s something that you’re hoping to do. You obviously already network with women’s groups, with the wi, with all sorts of other local traders and the big businesses who are concentrating on the small creative firms now. Is it important, do you think, to have that kind of support and to be able to have a network where you can explore ideas in that kind of safe place but also talk about this is what I want to do on a website, but I don’t quite know how to articulate it.

Precious Gough:
I think it is very important because as we’re now moving in this era whereby we’re very E commerce and I’m a 70s baby and I’m not very good with my it. So when the same way as when you are doing the markets outside, when you go and do markets, you speak to vendors who are also doing markets and they will say, oh, precious, have you tried this? Have you tried that? So meeting in this sort of kind of space. And when you are using the same platform, there’s going to be somebody who knows something more, who’s able to impact that knowledge. And you know, you learn every day and every day is a school day in business and that will sort of kind of help bring you to that level where you want to go to. So it is very important to be in that sort of kind of space whereby whether it’s the local council, whether it is with the wi, as you mentioned, but to have also a sort of kind of woes, sort of family whereby will be like actually, you know, I’ve looked at your website and actually, you know what have you tried doing abcd because this will put your business up the next stage. You know, I can see you trying to do this. I can see that there is a bit of a problem with this because you know, that will help me get to that level. I know how to sell if I’m doing person to person. But this is a very different way of selling and it’s a learning curve for everybody. But you know, some people have been doing this for years and we’ll be able to impact you with some information and as you say, it’s a different family with a lot of knowledge for all of us to share.

Abha Thakor:
And that is the thing about open source. It could be that you have a local meetup in your town, maybe in your city. It could be that you have a WordCamp that brings together WordPress users from a much bigger area. Everyone’s got a story to share and that is an opportunity to learn, but also to grow what you’re doing and to grow ideas with other people the WordPress way. We do want to focus on people’s stories, so if we haven’t featured your country recently, please get in touch. We want to hear stories just like the one Precious has been able to share today about how you’ve come into using WordPress, WooCommerce and other platforms within the open source environment. Tell us how your journey has developed. Share some of the things that you’ve learned, share some of the enjoyment as well. It really is that family community and you don’t have to have already been part of the WordPress community at a high level or even have been involved with it at all to start and find your way through what you want to be part of. I know we’ve been talking in previous episodes about WordPress photos and precious and I have been talking before the show about some of the things that she might like to get involved with. Now, one of Those has been translation into things and languages that might be useful for people in Zimbabwe, but also things like photographs and helping people look at the kind of photographs that they might want to share in the most amazing WordPress photo directory. I’m going to come back on that to Precious, Precious. You take an awful lot of photos of cakes and your products. Was that a hard learning journey to know where to start, what kind of pictures would work well and where did you really hone that idea?

Precious Gough:
So when I first started taking the pictures for the website or for marketing and I think from let’s start as simple as for just the leaflets, what you’re going to be advertising I would take with my phone and as I said, you know, I’m a 70s baby, but I love it and it progresses me to where I am. So I started taking pictures and I realized that, you know, the quality was not the best quality. And I think you want to put your best foot forwards and the journey around it. Again, it comes back to being in a family whereby you’ve got people that have got the knowledge to do things better and to help you to that level. So looking at it, looking at photographers that would be like, okay, what pictures? When, if you put them on the website, how do they come across? How should we look at that? Looking at the backgrounds, looking at what they want to use them for. So it is really important and I think in the end, again, it was investing some money into it to like, okay, you know, because some of my pictures that I took from my phone, I had not when I first started, I had no concepts. I would just say, oh yeah, I’ve done the cakes in the jar. Here we go, let’s take that one, let’s put it on for the website. And so when building the website, it just looked like, oh my goodness me. So if you looked at that, those cakes, you probably wouldn’t be enticed to eat it. So getting that sort of kind of language, the language that I have on the shop market in terms of like, if you come in and you look at the jars, you want to taste it, you want to eat it. So that is the same sort of kind of language you want to go through with your E Commerce with the WordPress way. So having the right pictures done, the right resolutions having, having it done properly and I think, you know, getting a lot of ideas in terms of the background in terms of how you’re gonna style your cakes, that was really important. So yeah, so I, we ended up having a photo shoot for the cakes which I was very jealous about a.

Abha Thakor:
Photo shoot for the cakes. Oh, that sounds very good. Every photo shoot I’ve been to with food, though, you never get to eat the food. It just looks beautiful, but you never get to eat it. So please tell me, at your photo shoots, did people get to eat the cakes?

Precious Gough:
Oh, my goodness me. Everybody ate the cakes. Yeah, we had too many cakes in the end because we were trying to do different angles and things like that. And some of them, I think if you look at my website, there is a picture of us dipping into the lemon jar, into the lemon jar, cake and lifting up that fork with that cake and seeing those crumbs and how it looks like when it’s on the fork. So everybody afterwards was so happy the photoshoot was over because they just couldn’t wait to eat it. And that is the. You want that vision to come through as well as when people go onto your website.

Abha Thakor:
So if people are listening to the WordPress way and they now have got this image of crumbs of cake and a fork going into the jar and bringing out cream and cake, all I can say is this is where you press pause on the podcast, you go to your kitchen and you find some cake. That is a really useful tip about photography. You’ve also used other techniques that again, are possible now and you don’t have to have very specialist other services. You can do this all within plugins, within the WordPress space too. So you’ve got a membership club. So what made you decide to do that kind of club and community within your online presence?

Precious Gough:
I think it’s more for just to get that knowledge and to uplift myself as a business within this kind of community, within the sort of, kind of WordPress in terms of like, to utilize this to the best of my ability. And I think that was the reason why I joined. I understand that. Okay. A lot of the knowledge that I have come across up to this level has been more of trial and error. And it would have been good if I had somebody who would have been able to advise me because then that would have been less costly, you know, so having this community that sort of, kind of have. Have done this before and also now I can also advise people which will avoid them from sort of losing a lot of money when you’re doing certain things, like actually, you know, if you do it this way or if you have these kind of plugs in, this will help. So that’s why I joined, also to increase my knowledge and also to increase sort of my, my presence to have the impact that I wanted to have on the Net. Yeah. And in business.

Abha Thakor:
And you have it all under one platform, which is even better. And you can change those plugins, look at different things. And you’re also able to check that things are meeting the local data protection regulations or regulations for wherever you might be trading. So that must make it easier as well, having everything under one platform so that you can consider what works well for you.

Precious Gough:
Yes, it does. And what I did like about commerce in terms of helping me is that, you know, there’s plugs in whereby it goes straight to your phone when the orders come through, managing the orders. So from a business perspective. So I will get. When the order comes in, I’ll get a notification that an order is coming. And I think this really works well with my flexibility in terms of I’m still juggling my job as a nurse and also trying to do my baking and my home accessories. So getting a notification to say there’s an order, then I can plan myself better to say, oh, okay, there’s an order. And once you’ve posted that, you can also kind of put that information in which notifies, you know, the customer that, oh, thank you very much for your order. We’ve seen it and it’s on its way. And, you know, you can put in the tracking, the shipping tracking. So they can also monitor their parcels until they get them. And once they get them, you notify that they’ve got that. And also helps with asking for feedback from your customer once. Once they’ve received it. So it becomes a whole full circle, full cycle from sort of people seeing what you’re doing, but from ordering, the ordering process right through the feedback process, which is actually what really, as a business, we’re all about.

Abha Thakor:
And it’s that seamlessness, isn’t it, that you’re looking for. You want to make your life a little bit easier, but you also want to make your customer’s journey easier and be able to adapt the plugins or the themes, really, your content through Blocks and what Blocks can Now do in WordPress, you have all of those options, which is a great level of flexibility. But also when you’re juggling the family, the a nursing career, which is as important to you, and that’s very valuable to be able to say, actually, I don’t want all of my time to be taken away. I want to be able to do these things and I want to still be creative. Plus baking to make the products as well.

Precious Gough:
Yep.

Abha Thakor:
So precious. Where can people find you online? What is your website.

Precious Gough:
So my website is I have for the cakes. So you can go to pmbakedgoods.co.uk.

Abha Thakor:
So that’s pmbakedgoods.co dot UK. And you’ve got another site as well, haven’t you?

Precious Gough:
Yes I do, which is pm home.co.uk. and PM Home is where you’ve got all the accessories, sort of like your oven gloves and the tea towels, the kitchen aprons and that sort of kind of has got the print that I designed myself.

Abha Thakor:
Fantastic. Well precious, thank you for joining us today on the WordPress way and helping us support what you can do with all these open source platforms. As a small business, as somebody who is wanting to try a new field of work and have a bit of fun at the same time, we’re really glad that you could be with us for this and also will be following your story. Next up we have in November we’re going to have a focus on plugins. So if you have the most fascinating adventure with plugins that you can share, please get in touch. You can contact me on nonstop news UK on X, contact me through the WordPress.org or reply to one of our social posts on OpenChannel FM. We really want to have a great variety of plugin ideas that we feature next time In December we have our release podcast planned and it is going to be 6.9 that we will be covering. We’ve got our panel lined up and as with every other release that we focus on, we’re very keen to help you understand how you can make the most out of the latest releases, features, updates that WordPress brings to you and that contributors from around the world bring to you. We’ll also be talking about how you can test the software not just to be part of the big release process, but also so you can get your own website, your clients websites, you’re learning up to date and be a bit ahead of the game as well. So do join us for that. As ever we’ll be welcoming your questions for our release panel show. Do make sure you send them in. We always try to include as many as possible. So thank you for joining us today for the WordPress way on Open Channels FM and we look forward to you joining us again next month. Take care and catch us next time.