What is a WordPress Developer

Robbie: Hello, everyone. This is Robbie Adair with Do the Woo, and we are going to be doing a dev chat episode today. And my co-host right now is Kathy Zant Kathy, how are you doing today?

Kathy: I’m doing really well. It’s good to see you, Robbie.

Robbie: Yes. Good to see you.

Kathy: Or hear you. This is audio, isn’t it?

Robbie: Yes.

Kathy: We can see each other, though.

Robbie: I was going to say we’re cheating, we can see each other, just the audience can’t see us. And we are joined today by two great guests. We’ve got Ebonie Butler. Ebonie, how are you doing today?

Ebonie: I’m great. How are you doing?

Robbie: Doing good. Although, I’m in Texas, and so, it is hot as a son of a gun out there. I just got back in from lunch and I thought I was going to die. It’s really hot out there, y’all.

Ebonie: Yeah. Over here in Philly, it’s pretty hot as well.

Robbie: Oh yeah. Quite honestly, it’s hot everywhere. Everyone I talk to. I mean, even in England, they’re like, “Yeah, we’re dying.” It’s like, it’s so hot. We also have Lisa Canini. And how are you doing today, Lisa?

Lisa: I’m doing good. It’s not too hot here, so I’m quite pleased.

Robbie: Oh, where are you?

Lisa: I’m near Seattle.

Robbie: Oh. See, I have people all the time they’re telling me, “Robbie, you really need to move up on the coast there Seattle, or you need to go to Oregon, or whatever.” I’m like, “Yeah, that’s a long ways.” But the weather does look very attractive right now.

So today what we’re going to talk about is something that we, being in the tech world, we’ve seen this debate for a long, long time, which is, what defines a developer? In this instance, we’re going to talk specifically about what defines a WordPress developer. And it’s been talked about on other shows, and so, we’re kind of following up with some more information or what we think about that from our perspective and our experiences that we’ve had in the IT world. And I’m going to let Kathy go ahead and kick off here in just a minute. But Kathy, if you’ll also, when you’re going to have them answer the first thing, if you would just also, let’s talk about what they do and what their background is too.

Kathy: Okay. So what is a WordPress developer to me? Yeah. Well, I got involved with basically HTML development, CSS development, JavaScript development, and started just every time a new technology would come along. I would learn it and over, I mean, I got a cheat code because I got started so early. So as technologies came into website development, I was able to learn them, as they were growing, I was growing. So I wasn’t like thrown into the deep end with everything. And then when WordPress showed up, I’m like, oh, it’s using the same database connection class that I’m using on this project over here. So WordPress became a natural extension of what I was doing, because I was blogging too, using Moveable Type. So I was really, I was lucky to get into WordPress development really early. So it made it super easy for me.

To me though, having been on a number of different, I’ve been a developer and in worked in agency and all kinds of things, but now I’m helping people use WordPress tools. And to me, a WordPress developer is anybody who wants to develop a page in WordPress, a blog, anything. If you want to do something in WordPress, you’re going to learn some development. You’re going to learn how to develop content. So there’s a number of different facets. There’s so many different complexities that go into WordPress. You’re going to get your foot or tip your toe into the pool, but then your foot’s going to slide in. And all of a sudden you’re going to swim.

So to me, a WordPress developer is anybody who wants to do something with WordPress. And I don’t think it has to be a certain class of, you don’t have to be like a PHP expert to be developing in WordPress, but it’s helpful if you learn it, you just have to be open minded enough to learn something new. And there’s always going to be something new to learn.

Robbie: Absolutely. Ebonie, tell us kind of your path and you are a full-time developer, correct?

Ebonie: Yeah. So I actually started teaching myself how to code in 2016 because I’m a bit of a late career transitioner. I wasn’t happy with my career at the time I was working in defense contracting. So in 2016, I taught myself how to code in my first ever major project that pretty much landed me my first ever dev job was building a WordPress theme.

And so when I got my first dev job with Yikes Inc, here in Philadelphia in 2017, I was just head first in WordPress. I guess I was born into the WordPress world as soon as I started learning how to code, which is kind of cool. I enjoy WordPress so much, I definitely wouldn’t have it any other way. And now I’m at Penske media corporation as a senior software engineer and still doing WordPress websites. So yeah.

Robbie: Awesome. Well, we definitely, we would say that you were a WordPress developer from birth.

Ebonie: Yeah.

Robbie: And you’re six years old, I like it.

Ebonie: Exactly.

Robbie: Lisa, tell us your path.

Lisa: Mine’s kind of weird. I, this is a second career for me. I worked at a public library for 14 years and helped a lot of people with technology and saw a lot of really bad websites and tools that people had to use. And I was like, I can make this better. So I taught myself for a while and then I went to a bootcamp and got hired in 2020 just as the country was shutting down for COVID, so kind of weird timing, and definitely a junior feeling developer. WordPress wasn’t even on my radar, honestly. There’s a lot of preconceptions about WordPress. There’s a lot of people who were like, oh, that’s not real coding, so my school didn’t cover PHP, didn’t talk about WordPress, but it’s been a great community.

Robbie: Awesome. Well, and so I tell you guys, and so I think, I think it’s really interesting that all of you identify as developers. I mean, you do, you identify as WordPress developers in particular.

Now I’ll talk about myself. I’ve been like Kathy. Okay. I, even pre-internet I was on the bulletin board. Oh, I really dated myself there. And I remember my first page that I wrote in HTML was before the image tag was supported, HTML one. I actually even worked in GML for a while, but anyway. So I’ve been, I will say I’ve worked in those languages, but I never call myself a developer.

So I think that’s interesting. I call myself a tinkerer at best or an integrator. I call myself different things, mainly because I had always felt like or been told, better, when I went to tech conferences and they weren’t just WordPress, by the way, this is just across the board, give you a PHP conference, a Juma conference, WordPress, that developers write code. And if you don’t write code, don’t call yourself a developer. And so I did not call myself a developer.

Now I do think that this is interesting because they’re all languages, right? And so I sit down with the best of them and write HTML from scratch, no problem. CSS, yes, absolutely. And a lot of coders will say, well, that is not true development language. That’s a markup language. Well, yeah, it is. But it still has logic in it. It still has structure in it. And to me, maybe I’ve been wrong by not claiming I feel like I am partly a developer as well. So maybe I’m wrong about that. I’d like to think that’s true.

So I do kind of relate it now maybe to let’s say they’re, they are all languages, right. I might not speak fluent Spanish, but I can sure go down to Mexico and order a margarita and find out where the restroom is in Spanish. So I kind of speak Spanish. Right?

Kathy: Well, the cool thing. See, I, my first, like if you wanted to say, what was my first language, even if you want to be elitist and say that HTML wasn’t a real language. My first language was Java. I went to a Java class, the company that I was working for and they put on my card, internet developer, and all I knew really was HTML and some CSS and JavaScript pasted out of a book, that kind of thing. And so they sent me to a Java class and I didn’t understand how programming languages were structured.

I still, I never wrote a line of code of Java ever in my life. But because I learned that one language and understood the structure of how programming languages work, that class helped me then understand how, well I was doing active server pages back in the day. So VB script, it kind of made sense. So now I could understand how that language structured, then JavaScript, okay, well, that’s kind of like Java so I could understand how that was structured, what a function was, all of those basic types of things.

Once you understand one language, learning another language is easy. It’s like you learn Spanish and then all of a sudden Portuguese kind of makes sense too. And maybe even a little Italian because they’re all kind of developed in the same way.

Robbie: Absolutely. Ebonie. So was PHP the first language you dove into?

Ebonie: Yeah. Okay. So I definitely grew up in a techie family, so I always knew what HTML was. Especially during the MySpace phase, we were doing the HTML and CSS to customize our page and we didn’t know we were coding programming, but we totally were. And just to kind of touch on, I know you made the analogy of comparing a program language to, an actual language we know learning Spanish, Portuguese. I will say that I definitely want to point out the difference in like when you’re a developer, memorization is kind of minimal. You’re kind of looking things up all the time, especially in my case. And all of that is like repetition. If you meet someone who knows so much off the top of the head, they’ve just been in the industry for a really, really long time.

And I think that as a younger developer, as a intermediate developer, you’re always looking things up, you’re always Googling, you’re always stack overflowing. And so to me, when you’re a developer, you’re very resourceful. You know where to look for your information. I rarely sit there and just start coding for five minutes straight. I’m always researching and looking and then maybe max, I’ll spend one minute typing and then I’ll go back to researching and all that. So I think that’s kind of an important distinction too, to call and you should be able to call yourself developer no matter what, even if you know, the tiniest line of code, that takes a lot of brain power, in my opinion.

Robbie: I agree. And Ebonie, by the way, I mean, I work with a lot of developers that are, I mean, they’re very senior developers and they will tell you, they’re like, no one writes anything from scratch anymore. Even senior, senior, senior, senior developers do not. They work from preexisting code that they had or what they found when they knew how to Google and search for what they were looking for. And then they have the skill set to take that and modify it to fit their particular need.

And to me,I mean, we do live in a wonderful day with our internet, right? Where we have so much information at our fingertips with our phone. And so it’s like, even with, if we want to even just look at it language, I now could go down to Mexico and I could turn on a translator and I could say it in English and let it do the translation for me. Might not be perfect. And so then I could then tweak that translation, to make it perfect. It’s the same kind of concept there, that there are tools out there that make it, I believe, more readily available for people to become better developers, because they’re working off of preexisting pieces of code, and then they modify from there. Lisa, how do you, do you start from scratch as you’re going to work on something? Or are you working from frameworks?

Lisa: I started working from frameworks and kind of moved more towards scratch and now kind of finding a hybrid. I don’t want to reinvent the wheel. People have, smarter people than me have already done a lot of things. So I think it’s a matter of, like you were saying, Robbie, finding what you need to work and then tweaking it and understanding it is really the hard part, reading all the code, but understanding what you need to do to make it work for what you need. So, yeah, it’s a lot of reading code, less writing code than one would think.

Kathy: Someone once told me when I was just getting started. You don’t need to know everything. You just need to know how to find out everything. Because that’s true, you don’t need to have a database of everything in your mind. You just have to realize, this is how I find it. This is where I can find it and have your resources available and just be, as developers, like we said before are incredibly resourceful people. They find simple solutions to complex problems. And I think that if you can do that, if that’s exciting to you, you’re a developer.

Ebonie: Yeah, totally. And just to add on to that, technology’s ever always changing. So memorizing something isn’t really going to help you out in the long run to begin with. There’s always a new version of something. And it’s yeah, that’s why you constantly have to learn in this career and be really good at the resources. So yeah.

Robbie: Yes, absolutely. And I think also that we obviously have a lot of resources at our fingertips on the web, but by connecting inside of communities. So not just being a developer, being a WordPress developer, being in the WordPress community is also probably one of your most valuable resources, in my opinion, for developers, anything actually, but for developers, especially because you’re mixing and mingling with the people who are writing code that you may be then using as a base for something or modifying from there. But you have resources to reach out to. Do you guys work with other developers in the WordPress community that have helped you or that you are helping along?

Lisa: I do work with WordPress developers since most of my time being employed as a developer has been during COVID. I haven’t been able to go to in person meetups or anything like that, like I used to do with JavaScript. But yeah, both of the jobs I’ve had, I’ve had a mentor who has worked with me either through slack or we’ve been zooming and code with me in real time. And they are amazing resources. I’ve already met a bunch of people virtually through local slack channels for WordPress developers and women in tech in general. And yeah, you’ve got a lot of people there to support you and it’s not as cutthroat as I figured tech would be. I mean, I’m not working for Google obviously, but it’s not, you’re not having to watch your back all the time. People just really care and want to help you make a great thing.

Robbie: Awesome. Ebonie, how about yourself? You found that same experience?

Ebonie: Yeah, definitely. And I will say I was also surprised that it wasn’t as cutthroat, especially being a person of color in the community. And even being on some of the release squads, that was a big step for me to kind of feel comfortable enough to be on the WordPress 5.6 release squad and the WordPress 5.7 release squad. I didn’t think I’d want to be on there, but because of the level of support that I received and really learn to dive deep into the open source community.

And I definitely wouldn’t, I mean, not that I have a lot of experience with other open source communities, but I don’t think I would have had the same experience at other open source communities. I think this is like definitely a WordPress specific thing where I was really supported and sought out and made sure that I was doing good and brought in to learn new things, because I expressed that I wanted to. So yeah, this community is really, really great. A great place to learn and it definitely elevated my career. So I thank them for that and just the whole vibe of the community, just being so supportive and ready to uplift anyone and everyone.

Robbie: Yeah. And you know, Ebonie, I’ve been in a lot of, I’m still in, I should say, a lot of different open source communities, not just the WordPress and you are right. One, I see far less percentage of females in most of those others and people of color as well. I mean, this is an uphill battle, we know it has been for years, not just in WordPress, but in everything. I mean, so it has been an uphill battle, but I do feel like WordPress really pushes for equality and diversity. Like it seems like it’s a staple part of the community emphasis or goals.

Thanks to our Pod Friends Weglot and Nexcess

Kathy, how about yourself? Have you found that to be true in the WordPress community?

Kathy: Yeah, I have. I have not, okay, so I’ve been in tech for a long time. I worked in a data center basement outside of Chicago. It was my first tech job, where the floors like come up and there’s like special, cool. It was a data center. And I was the only woman on an all male team. And there, I ran into some issues. I ran into some issues. I got called the marketing girl. I left, drove in my car and I’m like, I’m never going back, then I’m like, how am I going to feed my cat? I’ve got to feed the cat. I guess I’m going back. So I ran into that there.

I wrote a little bit about that on my blog because Michelle Frechette wrote something on Post Status. And that brought back that memory that I had of that first time that I kind of got… I had so much support in that group. It was just like one guy who just kind of mouthed off. And he didn’t really realize that he was just being his natural self at work. And didn’t realize that that had an effect on me as a very young woman who was just getting her feet wet in tech. And didn’t, he had no idea.

It definitely triggered me, it became a learning lesson. I had support for my superiors that saw what had happened and they were there like, revenge is best served cold. And they kind of set me up of like, you get to pull one on. So I had very supportive superiors that were able to kind of mitigate all of that, but I’ve never seen it in WordPress. In WordPress I’ve seen… But I’m more confident. If my 20 something year old self had come into WordPress, maybe I would’ve experienced it differently or maybe times have changed, I don’t know.

But then when Michelle Freshette wrote that piece and had those screenshots, I’m like, oh no, it still exists. People… Somebody said woman shouldn’t code and that was where I got fired up and wrote my blog post because I’m like, what do you mean women shouldn’t code? It’s just like, what are we supposed to be doing in your mind? It was just such an odd thing for someone to say, because I know so many women who are coding.

I know so many women who are doing amazing work with WordPress, whether they’re writing code or they’re creating amazing websites with the tools. It was just so odd to me. Women can do whatever they want to do. And there shouldn’t be, anybody can do whatever they want to. And that statement just kind of rubbed me the wrong way. And I don’t know, I got a fire under me to write that blog post and yeah.

And now I look at my daughter, who’s doing her first WordPress site. And I think about her and if she, I don’t know if she’ll go into tech, she rides horses. I don’t know what she’s going to do. But if she does want to go into tech, I don’t want her to experience and go through what I had to go through back in the day. I want her to feel welcomed and I know WordPress is going to do that. I know that there’s enough people in WordPress, but if just one person mouthing off, just because they don’t know any better, it can be perceived by someone who’s just getting started and doesn’t have confidence. And so being sensitive that it could be perceived in a certain way and could shut someone down. That kind of thing needs to have a light shown on it.

Robbie: I agree. Did either of you have anybody you felt was blocking you, we’re not naming names, obviously, I just mean, did you ever feel that you were, your career going into development was trying to be blocked by anyone or did you find just help and mentorship all along the way from everyone?

Lisa: I really didn’t feel like I was blocked at all. I got into tech and into coding. I started coding in my late thirties. So I had more confidence in who I was. So I didn’t have a lot of barriers like that. I did feel quite old in some of my courses, but my boot camp was very inclusive. It was pretty much half women, lots of people of color. It was very inclusive. My computer science teacher was a woman. And then she went on to mentor me during my job seeking.

And I haven’t come across any gatekeepers who are like, oh, women shouldn’t code. I’m hoping that that is fading away. I haven’t read Michelle’s post, so I’m not certain how old that is, but yeah, women can do whatever they want. Anybody can do this, you just have to have the right mindset and the curiosity and the… You have to want the challenge to always have things to learn.

Robbie: Absolutely. And Ebonie, what about yourself?

Ebonie: Yeah. So actually I have sort of a interesting story. So I mean, being that I was always interested in tech growing up, I originally started out as a computer science major when I was in college. So I was just really passionate about pursuing a career in tech from the get go. But in my sophomore year I was taking some really difficult class.

In my brain it was only difficult for me, it was something related to binary trees and recursion or something like that. And, but in reality, everyone was struggling with that class, but I knew that after the fact. But I went to a teaching assistant, he was a white man and he literally just said that I wasn’t supposed to be there. And so I changed majors after that and kind of just gave up my initial drive to want to be a programmer right out of college. So yeah, 10 years after that, I finally, with age, just like Lisa mentioned, I was pushing 30, I was like, you know what, I’m going to try that again. And so I did, and now I’m here.

Robbie: Well, great. We’re glad that you are and hate that you experienced that. I mean, I will say again, aging myself, I mean, it is so much better. It is so much better these days. As well as I feel like there’s so much more support for everyone, okay. I’ll say for everyone, females, people of color, whatever your identities are, right. There are so… It’s at least it’s being addressed. It’s not something that’s not being addressed is being talked about. And there are a lot of good groups out there that I feel like people can turn to if they need support now.

I mean, women who code that the organization is fantastic and they are really, really helping us get the word out to the younger generation that, yeah, it’s okay. You know, just like Ebonie was told you don’t belong here. It’s like, no, you do belong here. And they’re getting these young girls involved at early, early age and telling them it’s okay. If you want to be a programmer, it’s fine. You want to be a developer, it’s fine. And so I think that’s good, no matter what they come back to be and no matter what they, their term means when they call developer, they are at least seeing that it’s possible that they can do it. Right. They can do anything, as we said.

Ebonie: Yeah, totally.

Robbie: So we’ll just leave this on the developer definition of a WordPress developer. We think a WordPress developer can call themselves a developer if they feel like they can develop anything in WordPress. They don’t have to necessarily say, I can sit down and write a function with my eyes closed. It means that they, maybe they work on somebody else’s code. They take some code that they found online and they modified it to fix their solution. And I think that is a good enough definition for it. And everybody can obviously make their own definition.

But, because we’re on the topic of helping people get in to being a developer, what would you tell someone today if they came to you and said, Lisa or Ebonie, I would like to be a developer. Whether they’re female or person of color or whatever, alien, whatever, and they want to become a developer, what would be your suggestion of the steps that they should take to do that?

Ebonie: So first I would actually just ask them, what are you interested in? And what are you interested in building? Because that’s where a lot of the passion and excitement starts. Finding an idea that you’re like, oh, it’d be cool if there was an application to do X, Y, Z. And doing something that you want to see come into fruition and that you’re passionate about is going to aid you in keeping up that motivation to learn how to build that thing, whatever, whatever functionality it may be.

So I would encourage the person to figure out what cool thing they want to build. And then based on what they talk about, I would really start guiding them towards resources based on whatever code language that might be more the most applicable for their application. But, as a web developer myself, I legit just started out with free code camp. I’m not really sure. Yeah, they’re still around, I think. But yeah, it’s just, there’s they cover a lot of different things, not just front end development, back end development, like a lot of software, software languages as well. So as a specific resource I’d I always put people towards free code camp.

Robbie: Awesome. And Lisa, you mentioned you were in a boot camp. Is that something that you would recommend to someone wanting to break into becoming a developer?

Lisa: Like Ebonie said, it depends what you want to do. I started teaching myself, I did code academy and free code camp. There’s so many free resources out there. I chose to do a boot camp because I needed to kind of hone my focus. I was trying to learn everything and that’s just not viable in tech. And so I joined the bootcamp for that purpose, to have a curriculum and some guidance, but a big part of that curriculum was kind of learning how to learn. So they talked about kind of going back to what Kathy said, they taught us a language, but then they showed us how it could apply to other languages and how the tools we were using reading docs and stack overflow, how that can apply in different languages, so you don’t have to just focus on the one.

But I would definitely suggest just playing around with free resources. You don’t have to spend a lot of money to get a computer science degree, unless that is the challenge that you want. But if you’re talking more like web development, more full stack, I don’t think you have to get a degree. Most of the people I’ve worked with, a lot of them didn’t have the four year degrees. A lot of them said they couldn’t even probably pass like a coding interview these days, but they were some of the smartest people I know.

Robbie: Yeah. I mean, I definitely tell people that they need just like you and Ebonie both have any pointed out, you really need to know what, what your passion is. Or, if you don’t really have a specific passion, still do some research and pick a project that you can start working on yourself because nothing teaches you like doing it yourself. I mean, like with our OS training classes, we do that same thing. We try to teach someone they can follow along and do it because you can watch something, you can read something, but actually physically doing it, is what really sinks that into your brain. You start to see the theory and the logic behind things. You see those overarching things, you put it together in your head because you’re actually doing it. So I agree, you need some sort of project there. Kathy, what about yourself? What would you tell people to do?

Kathy: Really, necessity is the mother of invention. I’ve been spent a lot of time in the security space where certifications are incredibly important because knowing security and knowing all of the different ways someone could get into a system is important. But also there’s something to be said about… I mean, all of us kind of taught ourselves. We got our, we got juiced up by our own personal interest that… I’ve homeschooled my children and teaching them things that they didn’t want to learn is ridiculous. You just can’t do it, right.

There has to be that seed of motivation. There has to be something there that makes you want to learn something that makes you want to create something. If that inner motivation is there, you’re going to find the way, just stay persistent. The great thing that is that exists in the WordPress communities, there’s so many people who are there to help. All you have to do is ask a question and you’re going to be pointed in the right direction. So whatever it is that you want to do, find that inner burning desire to create, and the answers will show up and you will create whatever it is you want to do.

Robbie: And, the last thing I’d like to us to talk about when we’re talking about developers, I think, because this is one is becoming such a big topic these days, and that is low code, no code tool sets as well as AI code helper. Personally, myself, it’s like, I always say, if there are people who can work in WordPress and they really know nothing about HTML or CSS, right? They really have no idea what’s behind it. And I do think that they’re losing something in what they could do with it. And they do need to at least learn some fundamentals.

I kind of feel that same way about the no code in particular, you’re still kind of wizzy wigging it, but if you don’t understand fundamental theories of what a loop is, conditions, things like this, you need to understand the theory, at least behind it. So personally I have no problem with these tools. I think these tools will just make us better because I do think that you would, even using those tools, would still have to push yourself to learn more about development. Do you use any of these type tools?

Lisa: I do not yet. There’s a hundred days of no code program that I’m going to be starting later this year, just for fun, just to see what tools are out there. But there’s just so much to learn in code. It’s just so much always to learn. So I haven’t used those tools yet, but I definitely see the appeal, being able to make something woozy wig, click and drag. That’s really powerful. And I don’t mean to like dismiss people who are doing that. That’s really cool. It’s just not the route I have gone thus far, but it’s definitely really exciting.

Robbie: I particularly am excited about the AI help tools that they’ve developed. I mean, there are, there are little AI bots that can write full pieces of code and it’s kind of freaky how good some of that code does come out. So I think it’s interesting, but again, behind every one of these no code, low code or AI was a developer or developers, I should say. So, Ebonie, what about yourself? Do you use any of the new tool sets out there?

Ebonie: No, I actually in the same boat as Lisa, there’s so much to learn with code itself and I’m still just, I have a laundry list of things that I want to look into and deep dive into, but I will say in my current position at my current job, we are fully full steam ahead, finally, into Gutenberg and I’m having the best time creating blocks and just overall enhancing the experience for the editors so they can drag and drop and do what they need to do and make their content look great. So I’m definitely enjoying kind of being the little background person, trying to get those things working for anyone who wants to low code.

Robbie: Awesome. No, that’s fantastic. And that’s exactly, that hit the point I was making is that yes, there are a lot of people who are grumbling about no code or whatever, but there’s a lot of code behind it. I always tell people the simpler an application looks on the front end, the more complicated it is behind it, always. So. All right. Well, I appreciate you guys joining us today. Kathy, you got any final words for us too?

Kathy: No, I think this was a great conversation. I’m really thankful to Bob organizing all of this and it’s just been so great to just uplift the voices of women who code. I think this is wonderful. And to just add to the conversation, so thanks.

Robbie: Yes, Lisa, Ebonie, thank you so much for coming on, because like I said, I hated to identify myself as a developer, but I may change that now after talking to you all. But I appreciate you coming on and sharing your experience and that representing female developers out there for us. I love it.

Lisa: Thank you for having me.

Ebonie: Yeah, absolutely.

Robbie: All right. Well we will see everyone on the Do the Woo podcast next week.