Adapting to Local Client Needs in a Remote Work World

Bob Dunn: Hey, Bob Dunn here, and I am joined today by Cami MacNamara, one of our co-hosts. And it’s always great to have you come back every month for, you know, moving forward.

Cami MacNamara: Oh, it’s always good to see you, Bob. And yeah, I’m just happy to be here and happy to see you.

Bob Dunn: Yeah, it’s always a good time every month. So I thought that we would, well, actually I’m going to have you talk a little bit more about it because you’re still actively doing this. But I think of, oh, just how things have changed. And, you know, back, but now, how long ago did you start your agency again?

Cami MacNamara: Oh gosh, I almost don’t want to say anymore because then people can do the math and figure out I, you know, I’m not 35. So, uh, 24 years ago. In fact, I’m gonna have my 25th anniversary of getting my business license in February of 2027.

Bob Dunn: No, okay, very cool. Very cool. So things have changed a lot. And I think maybe what I’m most interested is kind of the bigger picture is, you know, back when you really needed to basically walk the streets. I don’t want to say walk the streets.

Cami MacNamara: But yes, you have to, you kind of have to get out there and hustle to find clients. And for a while, everybody thought they could just easily hustle with on Google. And I think we’re back to a place where we need to hustle locally and in person again.

Bob Dunn: Yeah. Yeah. So where do you think the biggest, like if you span those years, the biggest change came in how you found local clients?

Cami MacNamara: Well, for me personally, I started out volunteering for groups all over Seattle and West Seattle, even the public schools. At one point, I had FTP access to the Seattle Public School servers because I was building websites for 2 elementary schools in my area. That was my very first, like, networking was through whatever my kid was doing. And I was kind of working part-time. So like, I did the Little League website, I did the soccer club website, I did local schools, the preschool group. And from that, I got parents who needed, who had small businesses who needed websites. And then I joined the chamber, the local Chamber of Commerce, and, you know, did that for a while. And then finally, in 2010, I joined Business Networking International, BNI Group, which is kind of a big commitment. And here, 16 years later, I’m still doing that.

So I never stopped doing the analog way of getting clients. While I care about my website and I want people to be able to find me on Google, I always found that it was rare that a very good client came to me via Google. You know, they not, not always the case. I have some wonderful clients who just found me on Google. But for every one of those, there were 10 tire kickers or 10 people that weren’t serious or that just wanted something for nothing.

Bob Dunn: Right, right. Yeah, that kind of hasn’t changed in some way.

Cami MacNamara: Yeah. And when you’re, when you’re doing it the old-fashioned way and you’re networking and you’re meeting people, you, um, you’re kind of, they’re already vetted. Right. So you, you know them through somebody who actually knows them. And that is a much better situation than somebody who’s a total stranger.

Bob Dunn: Right. Right. That makes sense. So one of the things is, and I think back, you know, because that’s how, you know, our previous business, how we spent our time starting that and what, ’93, 1993, which of course dates me too, but it’s, you know, that face-to-face change of a client relationship back when you were, you know, that was the thing to do, you know, go to chambers and then you actually working with them. How do you look at that differently now? I mean, is there the same amount of face-to-face with local or?

Cami MacNamara: Well, actually not really other than my regular weekly marketing meeting group that I go to. You know, and I’ll do networking events. I went to Ballard last week to a networking event at a bookstore. It was great. It was for women in marketing. But with clients, I’m mostly meeting with them on Zoom now. So it is incredibly rare for me to walk into a client office. And you have lived here, you know what it’s like. The main reason is because I don’t have time to sit in the car when I can actually just have the meeting and immediately get to work. I also can make video trainings for my clients when we’re meeting on Zoom and give them demonstrations. So it’s just, it’s a benefit for both of us. Occasionally, I have clients who have expressed that they learn better in person, and I make an exception for them, and I try to get them to meet me at the coffee shop that’s 5 blocks away from my house. So I don’t lose as much time getting onto I-5 and spending an hour and a half driving back and forth.

Bob Dunn: Right. So is there any particular challenges with those people that, you know, still have a little bit of preference for that face-to-face meeting?

Cami MacNamara: Yeah, well, I think that COVID kind of fixed that for us, right? Because we were, everybody was, I mean, there was always pushback. I wasn’t, you know, there were, I was doing a handful of meetings online before COVID, you know, with clients that were out of state. I’ve always had out-of-state clients. I wasn’t using Zoom. I think I was using Google Meet and gosh, what was the first networking thing that we used that no one uses anymore? Um, Microsoft had anyway, but you know, we had ways to, to meet people online. But nowadays I, I don’t get a lot of pushback. There’s a handful of people, and if they’re longtime clients, you know, I have, I have octogenarian clients and I will always go to their house. One, because I want to see them. Um, you know, I have a lot of retired people that, you know, aren’t great with the computer. So doing a Zoom meeting is hard for them. I make exceptions, but the rule 90% of the time is to have a phone call or meet on Zoom.

Bob Dunn: Yeah. So go back to the days of where you didn’t have anything maybe aside from a phone or maybe a fax, you could send them a fax or something.

Cami MacNamara: Oh my gosh, I don’t think I ever had to do that. But I remember having like note, uh, you know, instead of like a, an online calendar, a notepad or like a, just a regular old calendar. And I remember when the first Palm Pilot came out, how exciting that was, right? To use that. Yeah. And, you know, that was just the norm for me to drive up to the U District and have a meeting with whoever my client was and drive home. And I would try to batch those. I still do that. I would, I would have a meeting day where I was out just going to meetings all day. And then the rest of the week I was in the office. But most of the time, because I live in Seattle, which is what, the 5th worst traffic in the United States, I was just sitting in my car. One time on I-5, a taco truck opened up and started selling tacos. I was on I-5 for an hour and a half. Like it was a complete stop. So, you know, when COVID happened and the West Seattle Bridge went down at the same time. That became the natural excuse of like not doing that anymore.

And it just became a great way to train my clients to, to accept that. And even my BNI group at the time went online. To this day, there are several BNI groups that are either hybrid or that only meet online. Um, I’m in one that meets in person.

Bob Dunn: Do you, well, okay, first of all, I remember back when I was, we had our business and we lived in Renton. For people that don’t understand, that was kind of a, I guess you could call it a suburb of Seattle. And it was, you know, like a 20-minute drive. And so it was, it was smaller, of course, than Seattle. But during that time, I found myself, of course, going and meeting a lot of times with, especially they were retailers, they were restaurants, they were people that…

Cami MacNamara: Bars.

Bob Dunn: That’s how they dealt with it. It was best if you went in and sat down with them for 30 minutes. And of course, the commute wasn’t much. But also what I did, I used to occasionally just stop by their business. I’d be out and about doing something and I’d be going by maybe this jeweler. I was working with this jeweler and I might just pop in in case he’s not doing anything, see how things are going. For me, it was that marketing side of things. So I always kind of got a feel of, you know, what they’re doing in their shop and even hanging and listening to them talk to a client or customer. I imagine that’s kind of, those days are gone.

Cami MacNamara: Well, not all, you know, West Seattle, we’re, we’re small, even though we’re close to Seattle because we have a big body of water between us. It makes us like an island. I can’t go anywhere without seeing a client. I pop into clients’ business. I am a patron of client businesses. You know, if I go to dinner, the odds of me running into a client are like, I don’t know, 75% of the time I’m running into somebody. If I am driving by or like I use my client services, you know, when we needed to sign my son up for his own healthcare, I went to the business that I built the website for. So I think that it’s a great way I can just drive down. And I know this is true of my friend Anne-Marie, who lives out in Duvall too. You’re driving, it’s like, oh, I did their website, I did their website. I did, you know, cause I am part of the community.

And then there’s also the people that I used to do their website. Maybe they outgrew me. Maybe they needed, they needed something that I couldn’t provide them. I sent them to somebody else or they found somebody else. I still stop into those businesses. So I always keep those lines of communication open, even if they’re no longer a client.

Bob Dunn: Yeah. Yeah. So let’s move to the current state of affairs as far as, um, what is it about somebody hiring somebody local? Is it they, they know you? Is it knowing you’re nearby, even though maybe you never have to go there? Does it bring a little bit more trust to them? What is it that appeals to them, do you think?

Cami MacNamara: Well, I think it’s the same as what I spoke about earlier, is when I’m, I’m getting a referral from somebody, or, you know, someone knows someone that knows the person I’m working with. Well, the reverse is true. Somebody knows someone that knows me, and longevity in the business and kind of that trust level and word of mouth when you’re doing business in your local community, you become, and, and you’re, and you’re touching your hands in a lot of businesses there. Like, you know, like I said, I’ve been doing this for so long that I either built their website a long time ago and I don’t manage it anymore, or I manage somebody’s websites now, you know.

I think it just gives you name recognition in your area. So I have always focused on SEO for West Seattle because it’s an easier nut to crack than the Seattle market, which is a lot bigger with big agencies. And I’m a solopreneur and I don’t, I don’t want the client that has $100,000 to spend because I’m a one-person show and I can’t give, you know, I can’t do that. That isn’t how I’m set up. An agency can do that. They can do market research and all of those things. It’s not, I just, I just build websites for small businesses. So if somebody is rural, well, there’s people that are rural that have websites and there’s always a bigger town nearby. And I know this because I grew up in a small, I grew up in a rural setting and the nearest town was 5 miles away. And then the nearest bigger town to that was another 5 miles away.

And so I just think that having that name recognition in your own community can help you get business without you having to buy ads for it. Um, and it can also help bring people that know people that you know in some way, shape, or form, which is better than somebody who’s a total stranger. No, it’s really the in-person networking, the chambers, the business networking groups, whatever they are, whether they’re BNI or LeTip, or, you know, I know that there’s different ones out there. You get to know other business owners, and that is kind of how you get traction.

Bob Dunn: When you were working with local people, you know, and you were getting that, those referrals and the reputation, everything back then, and when it happens now, are there different expectations from people than there were back then, especially that they think, oh, you work 5 miles from me, that’s kind of cool. When they first approach you or they first hire you, do you notice any difference in what they expect from you now compared to then? Of course, there’s technical stuff. But, you know, is, is there a different feel?

Cami MacNamara: I think one thing that I can say is a little bit different is I am out and about less in terms of like taking my laptop and working at coffee shops. That was probably the height of me getting just random business from the community because I was parked at the coffee shops all the time. And basically it was like having an open door to my office. And people would just like, maybe they would overhear me having a client meeting and that client would leave and they’d be like, hey, I heard you talking to so-and-so. Do you have a business card? So those kinds of things used to happen a little bit more. Now it’s a little less random.

Also, what would happen is I would be sitting in a coffee shop so much that I became the coffee shop’s web designer. That is still true. For, um, one of the most popular coffee shops in West Seattle, which I don’t go to as often because, yeah, you know, I’m juggling so many clients now. I got 2 screens. I’m doing meetings on Zoom. I can’t really do that from a coffee shop anymore. You know, working on the laptop’s a lot harder on the eyes. Gotta have the glasses. You know, that type of thing. But yeah, I think the more you’re physically out there co-working in a coffee shop or something in your local community, you’re just naturally going to run into people you know.

Bob Dunn: Yeah, yeah. I’ve often thought if there’s another business thinking, oh, you know, I hate to throw out the word partnership, but maybe they want to somehow work with you or cross-promote or whatever, is there a reason, do you feel, for someone to choose somebody local versus not local?

Cami MacNamara: I think some, I mean, it kind of depends on what business it is, right? If it’s like a, it’s like a local business that’s mostly getting local customers, your web designer also being local brings knowledge that somebody that lives overseas or in another city may not understand. Because every local area has their own quirks. So that, that’s one part of it, right? But honestly, it really depends on what the needs are of that client, right? So if they’re a really, they need a really big agency or something, I think that that opens the doors for it not necessarily needing to be local. It, it just, it depends, right? Because it’s a completely different, you know, living here, Renton’s different than West Seattle is different than South Park is different than Beacon Hill. That’s different than Seattle. I mean, we’re just, Seattle is basically a bunch of small towns all connected together.

Bob Dunn: Right, right. All have their own culture and their own flavor.

Cami MacNamara: Yeah. And, you know, for the, for the big fish and, you know, do they want to go downtown to a high-rise and meet people? You know, those types of things.

Bob Dunn: All right. Right. So, you know, other designers, and you probably talk to people, and, you know, when you travel and you go to conferences, and you’re going to meet other people. But have you ever been able to extract or understand why somebody might be reluctant to even do that, even though they could really benefit from starting to reach out locally and maybe grow their business a bit more?

Cami MacNamara: Uh, well, remember how I say I can’t go anywhere without running into a client? I think sometimes people, when they’re turning off their business, they really want to turn it off. And I honestly, I can never turn my business off. I mean, I’m going to walk out the door. I could go for a walk on Alki and within 5 minutes run into somebody I built a website for 15 years ago. Like I’m never off.

And you mentioned, you know, other web designers. I think another thing people don’t think about in terms of that networking aspect is you can get business from your competitors. And it’s good to know them and to network with them and your local competitors. You know, you think you’re all going for the same slice of pie, but really the, it’s everybody can have their own piece of pie. So knowing your, you know, like Anne-Marie does a lot of e-commerce and when I get an e-commerce client that is too complicated, I send it to Anne-Marie. And if she gets something she doesn’t necessarily have time for or want to do, she sends it to me. And so having those relationships can also really enhance things. But I think that you want to keep doing your business whichever way has been working for you. And it’s, you have apprehension in changing the way. Even if things start to decline, you wanna hang on to the way you’ve been doing it. And, you know, I, I left BNI for 2 years when my mom and dad passed away, and I was starting to see less traffic. Well, AI was kind of coming into the picture too, right during that time. And I wanted to pivot back to in-person networking cuz I got the feeling that it was gonna be really necessary. And 2, I missed it and I’m really glad I did it because even just not for the referrals, it keeps you thinking about your business all the time.

Bob Dunn: So if somebody wants to, you know, they’re listening to this and they’re thinking, well, maybe this is something I should explore or consider because, you know, for whatever reason, especially if they’re finding they maybe need to grow their business or there’s a possibility that they could get some of the business in these tough times that they’ve lost, you know, online or with other clients beyond their borders. What would you say is kind of like that first step?

Cami MacNamara: I would look at networking opportunities in your local area. So either your chamber or a BNI group. BNI is pretty much everywhere. You can visit a BNI group a couple times a year without even joining. You can go to a chamber event. You know, those usually cost a little bit of money. Um, I will hear a lot of times people doing cold calls and sending letters and telling people that their websites suck and you should really, or your logo is dated, or, and that is not, that never works. What works better is to put in the time to start going to these networking events and getting to know people in the community who are going to introduce you or learn to trust you, and then they’re going to come to you. And then maybe you get to know that person whose website really is not looking great, and maybe they’ll ask you your opinion, and there’s your foot, there’s your way in. Well, you know, it’s great, but I have a feeling that the technology’s dated and we should really look at that, you know? And then they’ll be like, yes, I had it built in 1993.

Bob Dunn: I think that a lot of, especially in the tech fields, and especially designer developers. The benefit of that, if you’re able to do it, you live in a place where you could actually start doing some local networking, is the fact that many of them struggle to get the courage or they just don’t feel comfortable going to larger conferences. And it seems like, I know from my experience, and it’s, and yours and yours and probably your experiences. It’s that communicating. I don’t care if you have, you know, 200 people or you have 10 people. If you are very introverted, 10 people can drive you absolutely crazy as much as 100 people in a room or 200 people or more. Seems like it would be a good way to build up to that.

Cami MacNamara: Yes, I, well, I remember I was part of the Alki Community Council here in Seattle, and I had to do a talk in front of everyone, like I, you know, I was one of the speakers, so and I just, I was so scared. And I remember my first WordCamp at University of Washington, and I was so scared to go, and, you know, had imposter syndrome. And, you know, I’m female, and, you know, the room is like 74% dudes at this point, right? It just, the whole thing was scary. And then, but by the time I left, I was so happy I went, you know. Anne-Marie was there. You’re always at these events. I may end up making lifelong friends and learning from my colleagues, which to me is incredibly important, right? To have camaraderie. That’s the other thing that networking can give you is you can meet people in similar fields or in your field that you can, you can have camaraderie with.

Rory Martin, I don’t know if you remember Rory from here in Seattle, but he’s been an agency owner since before my time, since the ’90s, right? And I reached out to Rory, not knowing him at all, and asking for his advice because I had gotten the opportunity to work with a government agency here in Washington State, and I was terrified to sign their contract. And so I just thought, I bet Rory Martin has worked with people and not to be afraid to ask for help from your colleagues. And so, you know, I remember when you had WooCommerce training courses on your website, Bob, and I remember all kinds of things. There were people in the industry I admired that I just reached out to. And anytime I’ve done that, it’s led to something good.

Bob Dunn: Yeah. And I think it’s one of those things where unless you grew up even as a child and you’re just very outspoken and very social or whatever, is that a lot of us can say we’ve been there when, I mean, I feel the pain whenever I see somebody say, oh, I’m going to my first whatever group, whether it’s small or big, and they’re just absolutely nervous. The one thing that always comes back to me is I remember back in the day, way back when I was involved with Chambers of Commerce and they would have these breakfasts and these breakfasts would basically consist of, oh, I don’t know, usually 30 to 50 people maybe showed up and you’d sit at a round table. You know, there was a round table that would seat like 10 people.

Cami MacNamara: With total strangers. Yeah.

Bob Dunn: And there was always that time that you would stand up and introduce yourself just to the table. You didn’t have to do it to the whole group. You know, sometimes you have to do it to the entire room, but everybody went around or went around the room, which, you know, there wasn’t always that many people in it. And I remember those first few times, or probably first several times I went, whenever it’d get to my table and they’d start going around, I mean, I felt like I was gonna throw up my breakfast or something.

Cami MacNamara: Oh my God, I totally know this feeling. I have had it.

Bob Dunn: And I just would sit there and I couldn’t pay attention to what anybody was saying, because all I could do was count how many people…

Cami MacNamara: Yes. And your heart is going as it gets closer to your turn, and then you’re like fumbling. You’re even, the first thing that comes out of your mouth is like stuttering because you are scared. And I totally, when I first joined BNI, and you know, you have to stand up and, and talk for 45 seconds about what you’re looking for each week. I remember writing it down and holding the paper and the paper would shake. So then I started bringing a clipboard so I could death grip onto that and people would notice how nervous I was. You know, and this lasted for me forever. Like it was not until my mom and dad passed away that I decided I’m not afraid to speak.

But practice helps you. Even if this is not something that you want to do, I would encourage everyone to try to get out and network in their local community. Because, you know, I just got a client this couple months ago who I don’t remember meeting, but says, yeah, I came to your BNI group like 6 years ago. And, you know, I go to a BNI meeting every week. So 16 years in BNI, that’s a lot of meetings. I don’t remember every single person. But all that mattered was that person remembered me and reached out to me, and he wouldn’t even have known who I was if I wasn’t making the time and putting the investment in putting my name out there in the area.

Bob Dunn: Yeah, it is. It’s true. You just got to keep doing it. And that’s the only way. And that’s what I did back then because, you know, it was like, okay, I have a business. I have to do this. I don’t enjoy doing it. In fact, I actually loathe it at this particular time, you know, and, and so that’s another thing about not just maybe building up a local business, but just building up a kind of a little bit of a local persona for your business.

Cami MacNamara: Yeah, there’s always opportunities at like community centers, or I know somebody who is putting together kind of a collective of business owners to, you know, do presentations to other small businesses. And those are also opportunities to get your name out there.

Bob Dunn: And I think a lot of people just are so deep into the remote work and the work they’re doing. And, you know, everybody seems to be getting busier and more involved in building this and that and creating this and that and stuff, that you could really lose track easily. And I still see people sometimes go on social platforms or whatever and talk about an upcoming something and just how nervous they are. Or, you know, almost, I went one time and I swear to God, I’m never going out again because it was the most horrific thing.

Cami MacNamara: And it’s no wonder people are nervous because in our community, in the web design community and in, you know, the WordPress ecosystem, in the tech industry in general, if you go on LinkedIn, somebody you know just got laid off from their job. And another person you know has been looking for a job for a long time after getting laid off, and it’s been months. And all of that sows seeds of nervousness. And I think it puts unease in all of our minds, and we have to remember that there are things we can control. And if you’ve got to stop waiting for it to come to you, maybe you have to get out there and go get it. Doesn’t mean you have to do it forever. You know, it doesn’t. It means that, you know, it’s just something that you need to activate now. It’s good to keep it as a habit back there in some fashion. Um, you know, maybe you just go a couple times a year to a chamber event, and then when times are tough, you go once a month.

Bob Dunn: Yep. Well, I think this is a good topic and something I wanted to bring you on because you’re still living it, you know, and, and I think, again, it’s not a thing from the past doing this local.

Cami MacNamara: Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Bob Dunn: Okay. Well, thanks, Cami. It’s always fun getting together and yeah, we’ll chat again next month.

Cami MacNamara: Thanks, Bob.