Monolithic CMS Products and Open Source CMSs and DXPs

Here is the corrected transcript with the requested modifications:

Karim:
Hello and welcome to Scaling Enterprise WordPress and Open Source. I’m Karim Marucchi, your host from the Scale Consortium, and today we’re going to have a great episode talking specifically about how enterprise stakeholders and the customers we work with have been navigating the challenges of comparing monolithic CMS products with WordPress and open source CMSs and DXPs. Today, we have a very special guest with us, Dan Drapeau. Dan.

Dan:
Hey, Karim. I’m Dan Drapeau. I’m an independent consultant specializing in DXP advisory services. I’ve worked extensively with a wide array of digital experience platforms, content, and commerce platforms, starting from an engineering and architecture perspective and then evolving into platform strategy advisory. As the industry has shifted, I’ve expanded my expertise to include CDPs and personalization. In late 2023, I launched my brand, DXP Catalyst Consulting, to help guide organizations through their digital transformation journeys. I’ve been working in the CMS/DXP space for about 12 years, starting at NorthPoint Digital, then moving to EY for several years, and later taking on a tech director role at Blue Fountain Media in New York before landing at Vynamic.

Karim:
Okay, well, that’s quite a background in helping enterprises figure out what to use, so we’re going to tap into that. In your experience, how are they approaching procurement?

Dan:
Sometimes, let’s say the sponsor might be a CIO or CMO, they might suggest, “Hey, we need to do a DXP evaluation. This is the vendor I’ve worked with in the past, so I have a preference for this one.” It’s a challenging task for procurement to start from there. They can pull up a Gartner or Forrester document and look at the leading DXPs, but that doesn’t tell the whole story. Of course, there are open source solutions, and you can’t really compare an open source solution—or really, let’s talk about an open source CMS—to a DXP, right? It’s comparing apples and oranges. So that’s where procurement faces challenges initially, just trying to move forward with this type of conversation.

Karim:
In my experience as well, you’re right. The stakeholder usually comes to the conversation already thinking, “I’ve either worked with Product X before or I want to work with Product Y going forward.” So they’re coming with these preconceptions. Are they asking procurement for alternatives, or are they bringing a set of alternatives? How is that working? Are procurement departments aware of what alternatives exist?

Dan:
I’m not sure if procurement departments are always in the know. I think there could be a variety of factors. It could be a CIO leading the charge to select a new enterprise solution for the company, and they might already be working with an outside agency and getting counsel on this. But yes, it’s certainly possible. In many circumstances, they come in saying, “We want to go with Adobe,” and then it’s up to procurement to find a couple of other selections if the company is truly trying to go at this alone.

Karim:
Are you finding, in working with your customers, that sometimes these stakeholders ask RFP writers or proposal writers in their departments or even consultants to write it for a specific platform, as in “I just want to work with this platform,” or are they more open-ended? Before we even get to procurement, how are they approaching procurement when they do this? Are they approaching it with an open mind mostly, or do you see that most of the time they’ve already decided, “Let’s write it in this way”?

Dan:
It’s a mix. Sometimes I’ve seen outside agencies or consultancies write an RFP or RFI on behalf of the customer, and it might be tilted toward a particular vendor. I think if an organization is doing this alone, there tends to be more of an open mind in terms of writing the RFI, so it doesn’t benefit a single vendor.

Karim:
That aligns with my experience as well, where you can sometimes tell if it’s been done with the help of an outside agent, as opposed to if they’ve hired someone like yourself who is independently thinking, “Let’s go talk about what your gap is.” Okay.

Dan:
And oftentimes, the RFI might not come out that well if a company doesn’t have the experience to put these types of documents together, especially in the DXP/CMS world.

Karim:
Right, exactly. So now let’s turn to the scenario where they have written this RFI or RFP, and it’s geared toward wanting an all-in-one solution—a procurement solution that is one vendor. What are the challenges for procurement? How would procurement deal with that if suddenly someone says, “What about open source?”

Dan:
I think they need to look more at the bigger picture here and really understand the requirements. Is a full DXP truly needed, where we’re talking about content management, analytics, personalization, email marketing, or do they really just need a CMS? Once you have a better grasp of the requirements, it’s easier to make comparisons. By having that full understanding, you can slice and dice things a little bit. So maybe you look at a couple of monolithic DXPs, but you could also consider individual CMS solutions or individual personalization solutions. It really depends on what’s in scope. I think that is pretty critical, and they also need to look at total cost of ownership. That’s a significant factor.

Karim:
Of course, but I heard you say that if they’re looking at DXP or open source, there’s the same assumption that we’re dealing with in the open source world where they’re thinking it’s either DXP (meaning one system) or it’s open source. Now, in a lot of the marketing I’m seeing these days, the monolithic DXPs are bending over backward to try and use the word “composable.”

Dan:
Yes.

Karim:
So while they’re doing that, is that an opportunity for open source vendors to say, “Okay, let’s help you redefine DXP”? Instead of approaching it as an either/or, can they say, “No, this is the same as the monolithic; they’re just as composable”? How can the vendors approach that mindset of “It’s either DXP or I’m going to look into open source”?

Dan:
The rise of composability has changed things a little. Like you said, you’ve seen some of the vendors offer more of a composable suite now, transitioning from a monolith. And again, when I look at a DXP, it’s like an ecosystem of technologies or capabilities—content management, commerce, and so on. There’s no reason there can’t be an open source composable DXP, right? There could be an open source CMS at the heart of it, but then you could integrate any other product that you might want. So I think that’s a good way to view it when you’re trying to make a selection.

Karim:
Right. So you mentioned being able to choose your own, and when the all-in-one vendors are trying to market the fact that they are all-in-one, saying “You don’t need to worry about it, even if it is composable, we’ve got your back,” I remember from our conversations that when you start your process, you conduct a MarTech gap analysis, right? Tell us about that and how it could help stakeholders and folks within an organization figure out if they need to be on the track for a monolithic system or if they could think composable.

Dan:
Sure. Oftentimes, I do the gap analysis when I’m working with marketing executives. Let’s say they’re defining a new digital customer experience and working with an agency on persona definition, journey mapping, UI/UX work to envision what it could look like. But when it comes to reality and actually trying to build a solution, there might be gaps in their MarTech ecosystem, and that’s where my service typically comes in. They might have a really old monolithic solution in place for a DXP, but there might be a scenario where they have an old CMS, but they’re missing capabilities for personalization, CDP, and other things they might need. That’s generally where I help. The output is typically either a platform strategy or optimizing their current architecture. If it’s a platform strategy, it’s important to understand where the gaps are and what capabilities we really need to look at because sometimes it’s not just CMS.

Karim:
Correct. Right. So if they’re looking at a DXP rather than just content management, it’s really about system integration. How would you approach that in helping the stakeholder say to their procurement department, “I’d like to look outside of a monolithic”? Do you have advice for open source vendors on how they can help their customers talk to procurement about looking beyond the monolithics?

Dan:
One thing I mentioned was really understanding the requirements. Again, do they need a DXP with a broad set of integrated capabilities, or do they need just a CMS or a best-of-breed solution? I think educating the client stakeholders is pretty important—making sure they understand the benefits and trade-offs of open source solutions and what composable architecture means, why taking a composable modular approach makes sense. Composable doesn’t only mean SaaS solutions; you obviously have to factor in open source here. Educating them on not just the total cost of ownership but also the flexibility you get is crucial. Case studies can be helpful in showing the value of open source and why they should consider it. Sometimes proposing a pilot or proof of concept can go a long way as well, but I don’t see that used too often anymore.

Karim:
So that can help our customer stakeholders explain it to others within their departments, whether it’s marketing or IT, and so forth. But when they

switch and say, “Right, I’m going to think of going to these two monolithic systems and a third option, I’d like to look at open source,” what our listeners would love to know is how they can tell procurement that this is worth doing. This is worth not only looking at monolithics where you’re going to talk to one vendor, but also at open source where you might have to talk to multiple vendors. I think you nailed it earlier when you mentioned total cost of ownership, but what other benefits or information do they need to give procurement? From what I’ve seen—and you tell me, you’re the expert—procurement is focused on schedule, ease of contract, and costs. So how do we get that information to procurement? How can our listeners approach their procurement professionals and help them understand why they should go through the extra effort?

Dan:
Well, I think there can be some trade-offs when you’re looking at the monolithic solutions as well, such as vendor lock-in, which is a significant one. You just have so much more flexibility with open source solutions, and that’s a pretty important thing for the stakeholders to actually understand. And again, TCO is incredibly significant in justifying why an open source solution should be evaluated.

Karim:
Okay, great. Have you run into any examples where they’ve been looking at solutions and had questions about how many vendors it takes or what the difference is between dealing with a monolithic and an open source platform?

Dan:
Yeah, that topic comes up. There’s a lot to delve into when looking at the advantages and disadvantages of a monolithic DXP versus open source. I’m happy to dive into that if it makes sense here. So where to start? It’s one of my favorite conversations. I think one significant disadvantage of a monolithic solution is innovation lag. Monolithic solutions just don’t keep pace with rapid changes in the digital landscape. New features and capabilities take a long time to develop and release, which limits what the organization can do. I know we’re talking mostly about content management, but one example I like using is around commerce. If you’re a retailer and you’ve got a monolithic commerce solution, let’s say there’s a rise in voice commerce, augmented reality commerce, or conversational commerce. With that type of solution, how can you really compete in the market when your competitors might have a more modern architecture or solution and can adapt to trends and technologies more quickly?

With a monolithic solution, there tends to be complex implementation, and upgrading is a huge undertaking. For example, with Sitecore, upgrading from version 8 to 9 or 9 to 10 is a big project. You don’t typically have that issue with open source solutions, with one caveat: older versions of Drupal. There tend to be high initial costs upfront with monolithic DXPs and just a lot of lack of flexibility. You’ve got vendor lock-in; it’s tough to switch providers. If you’re using a solution with built-in personalization, it may not be easy to leverage another personalization solution or vendor. You have a pre-integrated package, and scalability can be an issue with monolithic DXPs as well.

Karim:
Let me back you up a second. When you mentioned the lack of innovation, that’s why they started switching their conversations from “We are monolithic” to “We’re really composable; you can plug things in and out,” and they start touting the fact that they have APIs. Are they exposing their entire system so you can plug into any part of it and use any other system? Because that’s how the marketing makes it sound. How extensive are these APIs?

Dan:
It depends. There are still some monolithic solutions in the market. I mentioned Sitecore quite a bit because I’ve worked with it extensively, especially at Vynamic. They’ve got their XP product, which is a truly monolithic solution where you’ve got content management, personalization, email marketing, and analytics all bundled together. They’ve transitioned to a composable suite where they offer a number of other SaaS products that you can integrate. But there are trade-offs with that too, like having to deal with multiple interfaces. Some companies have shifted in that direction, but their customers haven’t, and their customers might still be using the monolithic solutions today because it’s a big investment to go from a single all-in-one solution to potentially needing to license four or five tools from the same vendor.

Karim:
That can actually bring your cost of ownership higher and higher each time they “innovate.” So if it’s harder to innovate, that’s the negative. On the positive side, you do have one throat to choke on the vendor side. You have one way to handle things. Today, with Acquia, you can use Drupal and still have a one-vendor solution by bringing in one of their approved agencies and the way they’re structuring their projects these days. But besides that one example, if you do want to use WordPress and DXP-style functions, how do you decide where to go? How do you approach that conversation when you’re speaking to your customers?

Dan:
Really understanding what capabilities they need and then exploring independent or best-of-breed solutions in each of those areas. DXP encompasses a lot, from content management through commerce, CDP, personalization, DAM, and more. There are many vendors with great solutions in each of those areas that are not part of a broader vendor-specific DXP. Once you understand what you’ve got with WordPress, but know you need a CDP and personalization capabilities, you can focus your search on what other solutions are out there and figure out how to integrate them within your solution, like WordPress. It’s easier in some cases, like with Drupal where Acquia exists, and they do have a number of products in their ecosystem, so it’s one throat to choke, right? It’s a single vendor. With WordPress, you have more flexibility and infinite choices to figure out what the right solution might be. You just have to do more exploration on your own.

Karim:
So the negative being that you have to do a little bit more homework or come a little more prepared. But what I’m hearing is that there’s an opportunity for both open source vendors and for the customers within an enterprise organization, the stakeholders, to say, “I have some ideas about how I want to do things, and if I understand the major pieces I want to put together, then a good consultant or agency can help me fill in those gaps if I find the right one.” There’s an opportunity there, right?

Dan:
For sure. I think in most cases, I would recommend that an organization go with an agency or independent consultant because it’s hard to do this on your own. Most companies don’t have the inside knowledge about every CDP vendor out there or what the right solutions are and how they all integrate. That’s a hard problem to solve.

Karim:
Right. So Dan, we’ve talked about how to approach the stakeholders and how the stakeholders might want to approach procurement to talk about some of these things. Do you have any advice for agencies or WordPress hosting platforms on the best ways to show a procurement department that they can create the same type of solution as some of these monolithics? How can they compete?

Dan:
Sure. I think it’s up to the agency and maybe the enterprise hosting provider to come in as a united front. In my experience, having these discussions with procurement departments, that has worked most effectively. So at least within the WordPress space, when we’re talking about enterprise hosting, typically you think of WP Engine, Automattic’s WordPress VIP, and Pantheon as great options. So, coming in as a united force is really the key approach I would take in that circumstance.

Karim:
That makes sense. I’ve seen a lot of RFPs come across where they are specifically written for monolithic systems. Do you have any advice for agencies or hosts when it comes to answering these questions, especially when the answers might actually be split across both vendor and host?

Dan:
Yes, actually. Branching off our topic of working as a united front, I think it’s the same in this circumstance. If I were an agency, I would lean on the vendor, like WP Engine, to answer the questions specifically around infrastructure. Then, as the agency, I would answer the questions from more of a services or integration perspective and be transparent. It’s a collective effort; it’s not an all-in-one solution or product that does everything.

Karim:
Okay, Dan, thank you. That’s a really good answer. So, in answering these questions and trying to help procurement understand how best to look at these options, it sounds like being yourself, being honest, and going out of your way to explain the benefits of open source—not only the total cost of ownership but also the deep expertise that you’re going to get from multiple vendors—is key. It sounds like the key here is to highlight composability and the fact that you’re not monolithic. I think that’s what I’m hearing in this conversation. Could you share some insights on how the different agencies or vendors around WordPress and open source can roadmap their services or approach to dealing with these types of customers? How can they compete? If you could give us a wrap-up of how they can prepare to have these conversations, what kind of homework should they do?

Dan:
Yes, I think roadmapping is key. If an agency is coming in with a solution like WordPress for content management, having a roadmap for where you might need to inject new functionality, like personalization, might make sense down the road. How are you going to address that within WordPress? You might select a specific tool and plan out how the integration would work, and also factor in prerequisite work, like having a personalization strategy. A lot of that logic

needs to be sorted out in advance because, from a monolithic vendor solution perspective, they can just say, “We flip a switch.” Obviously, that’s not really the reality, but that’s how they would probably go about presenting it. So, with agencies and hosting providers, it’s more about presenting a thorough roadmap and maybe even an architecture of the direction you’re going to go.

Karim:
Okay, so I asked from the point of view of an agency, but really that’s also what the buyer should keep in mind. At the end of the day, you do have the negatives of “It’s the Wild West; it’s very open; you have the entire MarTech 11,000+ that you could compose a solution from.” But the positives are that if you find the right partner, if you find the right consultant, such as yourself, to help with figuring out what your needs are and then find the right agency and the right platform, you can have solutions that don’t need to be re-platformed every three to five years. They can just develop because you are truly composable, and as you want to move from personalization X to Y or email platform W to Z, you can do that because you are truly composable when using open source as a hub. Is that fair?

Dan:
For sure. Yes. I think with most monolithic solutions, one thing we touched on was the significant upgrades, and it’s really the case if they’re cloud-hosted. But that is a major problem, and you don’t have that flexibility to test out a new vendor or product very easily without an extensive amount of work. With open source and a composable framework, it’s a totally different story. With WordPress, you never have significant upgrade cycles, right? There are incremental updates, and I think normally the enterprise hosting provider handles those core updates for you, and you’re more on the hook for updating plugins and things like that. But the major pro is that you don’t have to deal with significant upgrade cycles. You can focus more on innovation and building out new functionality. That’s the key, most critical part for the business.

Karim:
Great. Thank you. With that, I’d like to thank everybody for joining us and look forward to our next conversation. Please don’t forget to visit our page and get our podcast from wherever you get your favorite podcasts. This has been Scaling Enterprise WordPress and Open Source Software. I’m Karim Marucchi, and thank you for joining us.