How to Tell Friends and Family What You Do in WordPress

Marcus (00:00):
Hi everyone. Welcome to another Woo BizChat. My name is Marcus from GoDaddy and with me as always, I have my co-host, Katie Keith. How are you doing today, Katie?

Katie (00:10):
Yeah, good, thanks. So this should be an exciting episode. So we’ve got Topher de on today who has an exciting new project that we’re going to talk about and learn about. But the other topic we’re going to talk about is something that we all struggle with. I think when we work in WordPress businesses, how on earth do we describe what we do to friends and family who don’t know anything about WordPress?

Marcus (00:36):
Absolutely.

Topher (00:37):
I just tell ’em I’m in carpentry and fine woodworking.

Katie (00:41):
Yeah,

Marcus (00:42):
Just stay away from the tech part entirely. Why don’t we start with you Topher telling us a little bit about your new venture.

Topher (00:49):
Alright. It started as a challenge, a dare. A few months ago I lost my job and was looking around at getting another one and trying to decide if I wanted to start something new. And about three days before WordCamp you asked a friend said, I have a challenge for you. Start up a company today, build a website this afternoon. Go print a bunch of cards, take ’em to WordCamp, hand them out and bootstrap a company in the next two days. And I did it and it worked. The company’s called Media Forge Productions and I make videos kind of, but anything anybody wants, traditionally I’ve done WordPress training and things like that. But I did a product release video for WP Rocket. I did some developer relations videos for Fast Spring all since working camp. So it’s pretty fun. It’s exciting. I’m not making a full salary only video yet, so I’m still building some websites on the side, but it looks like this is going to be successful and I’ll go along with it rather than go get a job until it stops.

Katie (01:53):
Amazing. So what kind of videos are you doing then? So you’re doing product walkthroughs, promotional stuff, is it all screencast or do you do things like animations as well?

Topher (02:05):
Product walkthroughs, yes. I’ve been making a lot of videos for winning WP about how to do stuff in WordPress and we’ve been experimenting with YouTube shorts, which have to be a narrow dimension, like 1080 by 1920 basically for a phone. But they also can’t be longer than 60 seconds and most of ours are between 15 and 30 seconds. It’s a video on how to do something in WordPress that’s less than 30 seconds and people seem to really like it. They’re getting a lot of traction more. I think people like that more than watching a 10 minute video on how to do something. That’s pretty cool. Boy, what else? Just recently for the first time I had a stranger find my website and fill out my form and hire me, which is the way the flow is supposed to go. It’s cool to see it actually work. And this was pretty unique. He has videos made in sections by different people and so he has a script writer who only writes the script and then a voice person who only does the voice and then somebody else who listens to the voice and fakes everything on the screen, and then an editor who meshes them all together. And so he hired me to do two pieces of that, the faking it on the screen and editing altogether, and I’ve never done that before, so it’s interesting. We’ll see how it goes.

Marcus (03:35):
Yeah, that is interesting. I know that you’ve done some pieces, like you said, the shorts for winning WP just to to something in WordPress. Right. Do you see yourself building up a library of those things and doing a training video

Topher (03:49):
Type

Marcus (03:50):
Series on your site, or is this more just kind of client work type stuff? Someone comes hires you for a video, you do the video and that’s that. It’s not really a library of content.

Topher (04:01):
It hasn’t been a library of content yet, but I’m thinking about doing it because I do it for clients. I don’t want to compete with them. I don’t want to make my own library of how to and sell access to it and compete with winning wp. So I’ve been trying to think of different content that I could do that wouldn’t compete with anything anyone else has hired me to do. And I came up with a pretty good list. A friend of mine actually went to chatGPT unsolicited and said, what should Topher talk about? She asked a little more precisely, but it gave me about 15 topics that I could do short videos on and then expand those to WordCamp talks and things like that. I’m starting to daydream about setting up a lifter LMS store, just throwing some videos in there just to see if people want to buy what I’m making.

Marcus (04:51):
Yeah, absolutely. I also noticed that your company is not called something like Media Forge WP or WP Forge or something. So are you planning on doing video content outside of the WordPress space as well?

Topher (05:05):
I would if somebody asked if my grocery store asked me to make a video on how to clock in for their employees, I would do it.

Marcus (05:13):
Yeah,

Topher (05:13):
Most of my work has been in WordPress. I did the video for FastSpring, which they’re not a WordPress company. The video I made was for WordPress peace, but I could see that growing well outside WordPress if we wanted to.

Marcus (05:28):
And given your tenure in the WordPress space, obviously it makes sense to hire you to do WordPress videos predominantly, but I was just curious.

Katie (05:37):
Yeah, I think it’s a great space to be in because WordPress companies aren’t typically using video to its full potential yet. It’s like YouTube is the second biggest search engine and is a really great way to, you might have done lots of organic SEO, but are you in video search which appear in Google as well as on YouTube? Of course, and I recently had an interesting sort of experience with video where we have a full-time video person who we hired a year ago. So we’ve been putting out lots of video content and we’ve had a few issues with our organic SEO recently with Google algorithm changes. So we’ve had a few drops and we discovered that video is plugging the gap. So while organic SEO’s down we’re not suffering as much as we would’ve done because of the impact of video. So I think it is an important part of a marketing strategy that people need to pay attention to. So services like yours would help with that.

Topher (06:37):
What are you doing to market? How are you leveraging the video? Are you just putting ’em on YouTube and letting people find them or are you putting ’em in email newsletters or something?

Katie (06:45):
Typically it’s on YouTube. We post it on social once, but I doubt that does anything. And we embed it in the relevant blog post. We use our blog as opportunities to discover what videos we should be making because we have so much data about our blog, which is absolutely huge, like 600 plus posts that we can look at what posts are generating sales and conversions in high traffic, and the ones that don’t have video, that’s a good probability that the video will do well. So we then put that video in the successful blog post and they hopefully cross promote each other.

Topher (07:24):
Sure, that’s cool.

Katie (07:27):
So do you help with the marketing kind of advice about how to build YouTube channels and things like that, or is it more a case of they outsource the video production and creation to you and then they publicize it?

Topher (07:42):
I only help with one YouTube channel, and that’s winning a vp. And I’ve been with him, his name is Bryn, long enough that I learned on that channel. It’s been years now that we’ve been making videos together and I basically learned how to run a YouTube channel by doing that. I could probably, I never really thought about using that as a service to help out with people, but I certainly could.

Marcus (08:12):
Yeah, you talked a little bit about doing the short form stuff, the YouTube shorts, the vertical orientation, really short. I actually do find myself scrolling through those quite a bit, and I think a chunk of that is just because the limited number of ads that get in my way when I’m scrolling through a handful of those. So I appreciate that as well. But I’m curious to get your take on, is one better than the other, like a long form three, four minute video product demonstration versus 32nd the stuff that you’ve done? Or is there a use case for either?

Topher (08:49):
I’m sure there’s a use case for either. I prefer the shorts and I think the stats are showing that too. When I’m looking up on YouTube to learn how to do something, I’m rarely trying to learn a skill. I more often want to learn how to solve this problem that I’m working on a webpage and I don’t want to spend 10 minutes or an hour building a website from scratch. I want to learn how to add a row to this table. But then there are people who want to learn how to build a website from scratch and are going to watch that. I had an interesting experience when I make a video before I edit, I send it to the client for review just to make sure it’s what they had in mind, that sort of thing. And it’s full of mistakes. Me fiddling around trying to get my mouse to work, looking stuff up, oh, I don’t remember how to do X and all that stuff.

(09:50):
And recently a client said that he really enjoyed watching that. He enjoyed watching me do the craft of building this thing. I was replacing the woo checkout button with a fast spring button, and he enjoyed just watching how that’s done. And it occurred to me that some people might enjoy watching me because I’ve done videos in the past of how to build a website. Then they’re an hour and a half long, but they’re cleaned up, they’re smooth, they’re perfect. You do this and this and everything’s great. It took me three or four hours to do that and I made a ton of mistakes and it occurred to me people might want to see the mistakes. They may want to see, oh, he’s not perfect, he’s not getting it right all the time. There’s more to it than just click all the right buttons in the right order and it’s magic. You got to fight with it. I did a Twitter poll and asked, and 25% of the respondents said that they would pay to watch a video like that full of the mistakes.

Katie (10:59):
A big part of using WordPress is figuring things out. That is the skill, isn’t it? Trial and error using your kind of educated guesses. Where do other plugins or WordPress core put it? Maybe the plugins put it here it it’s that learning process, but I think there are two types of video watches. There’s the ones that will just really enjoy the whole process and have time on their hands to watch that kind of thing. And there’s really impatient people like me that just want to get straight to the point and would ideally just read the transcripts and find the point in my own time. So I guess you have to cater for both, don’t you?

Topher (11:38):
Yeah, yeah. You really do. In fact, we made a series of shorts and I’m going to remake them. They’re not going to be longer, they’re still going to be time chronologically short, but they’re going to be traditional dimensions. And then we’ll compare and see which people like more because when you’re doing it vertically, you’re basically working with WordPress in the mobile UI and it’s a different ui. It feels very different. And if you’re not on a phone, then you’re not going to know how to use that.

Katie (12:11):
Interesting. Yeah. So you’re doing a short of the WordPress admin, which you wouldn’t normally use on a mobile. I know you can, but people don’t very often.

Topher (12:22):
And I have found that some things are just as easy as on a desktop and some things I wouldn’t even do, oh, I have to do this. Nope, I’m going to save that for later when I’m on my desktop.

Marcus (12:32):
Yeah, for sure. Is there a way to, one of, I think the drawbacks in my eyes anyways for the vertical short form content is that it seems to be one of those things where you come across it and then you swipe onto the next one, you move on. Is there a way to realize those things so you can, I don’t know, group them together, make it something that you, I dunno, I feel like you come across those things accidentally. Is there a way to serialize them in a way where you can point people in that direction more intentionally?

Topher (13:02):
You can make playlists of shorts. So I did a series of shorts on how to do stuff with tables. So there was one on how to make a table, one on how to add a row, one, how to remove a row, one to add a column, et cetera. And you can make a playlist of those and then just swipe through and see them all. And then you can embed that play. I have a video on this too. You can embed that playlist on your website and people can watch that way too.

Katie (13:34):
Cool. Our other topic was how we describe what we do to people. So this is a whole new thing for you. How do you describe what you do?

Topher (13:44):
It’s surprisingly difficult, even to my WordPress friends, I say, I make videos, what does that mean? Do you have a camera? Do you have a green screen? Are you acting now? Things like that. And most people in tech understand a screencast where I say, I don’t show up on camera, just record my screen. And so I’m showcasing how to do anything you can do on a screen. And that usually gets people by people who are not in tech often just don’t get it. And I say I work on the internet.

Marcus (14:21):
That could mean any number of things. I’m curious if you broaden back out, I know that’s what you’re doing currently, but you’ve done any number of things online, be it development, design, social stuff. If you step outside of the WordPress space or even outside of the web space and you’re talking to, I don’t know, a family member who just is in a totally different industry and they ask you, what do you do? Or I get this a lot. When I have folks ask me what do I do? Where do I work, what I do for a living, just in general conversation at a convenience store or something, how do you approach that conversation and how do you tell them what you do without saying, I make WordPress videos, and they’re like, alright, hold on, step back. You need to tell me a little bit more about each of those pieces of the sentence.

Topher (15:10):
I usually start by telling them, I’m teaching people, I teach people how to use the internet or how to build webpages, and that’s common enough that people understand that.

Marcus (15:21):
And

Topher (15:21):
Then I’ll add on, and I do

Marcus (15:23):
That

Topher (15:23):
By making videos so that they can watch them whenever they want.

Marcus (15:28):
And

Topher (15:29):
That is actually what I do is I

Marcus (15:31):
Teach,

Topher (15:32):
I’m teaching people how to do stuff

Marcus (15:34):
And then

Topher (15:35):
The video is just the medium that I chose.

Marcus (15:37):
I like that transition in with teaching where it’s, here’s something that’s very easy for most folks to understand, teaching being a teacher, and then it’s expanding from there into what the topic is that you’re teaching about and how you do that differs from year to year, from person to person and all of that stuff. How detailed of a resume does someone at seven 11 really need?

Topher (16:06):
Yep.

Marcus (16:08):
What about you, Katie? How do you share with folks what you do when someone asks you what you do for a living?

Katie (18:02):
I love Tofus approach of going for the human-centric side first. I teach that’s a universal concept. I tend to do have a layered approach as I gauge their understanding. So the first thing I say is I run a software company with my husband and people generally know what software is from that. They often think that we provide services rather than products. So there’s something about what I’m saying there that doesn’t indicate that we’re selling products. So generally they’ll say, oh, do you build software for people? And I’m like, no, we sell software on our websites instead of having clients, we sell products. So that clarifies that. And then the next stop they say, what kind of software do you make? And then I say, it’s basically apps, but you don’t install them on your phone, you install them on a website. If you have a website and they add features to a website, and then if they seem interested, which they obviously don’t always, then I try to give an example and I find that e-commerce is quite a good example.

(19:19):
I’m thinking, how can I help people visualize adding a feature to a website when they’ve never even thought about having a website before? But I say something, imagine if you have an online shop where you’re selling products and you want to add extra features to it, such as a new layout for displaying your products or adding extra options to your products, all of which are actual plugins that we sell at Barn two. So I tried to think of what are our most accessible products? And I haven’t mentioned WordPress and I haven’t mentioned WooCommerce. And generally I don’t think there’s a need to, but sometimes if they know a little bit more than I have, patronizingly assumed they might say, oh, what sorts of websites are these built for? And then I might say, have you heard of WordPress, this platform for building websites? And sometimes they say yes.

(20:11):
And I’m like, oh, okay. I’ve totally patronized you and wasted your time with this long explanation then. And there was one time I was just talking to a mom on the school run in a village I used to live in, and it turns out she had a WordPress website for her events planning business and she knew what plugins were and had installed them and things, and I ended up helping her out as a kind of friend thing, helping her with the widgets and things that she was stuck on. So that’s my tailored approach. But then you will still get everybody thinking, oh, you technical, can you fix my printer? Can you set up my wifi? There is no way to avoid, has either of you got a way to avoid that?

Marcus (20:58):
I try to help if I can. I feed into the stereotype and I try to help if I can’t. And then if I can’t, I’m like, that’s not really what I do. But

Katie (21:08):
Even though you’re not a printer engineer or a network engineer or a hardware person, I’m assuming,

Topher (21:14):
Yeah, I try to head off the conversation and say something like, ah, nope, I don’t do that stuff.

Katie (21:21):
I know a great PC repair shop,

Topher (21:23):
That

Katie (21:23):
Kind of thing.

Topher (21:24):
Katie, I know what Barn two does, and I used to know what you did because there was just you and your husband for a while. I don’t know what you do day to day. Are you managing now? Are you

Katie (21:36):
Kind of everything that’s not direct software development really. Yeah, that’s typical company owner stuff. You end up with this ridiculous role that covers so much. So I head the marketing team, although I have marketing people on my team now, I manage most of the software projects like setting requirements, writing the specs for the products for new plugins and testing them and feeding back on them. But not from a code perspective. I’m in charge of business development. I oversee customer services, although I rarely jump in. I do sometimes that, which I shouldn’t, but I have meetings every two weeks with our head of support to talk about improving support. So define that into a job title, please.

Topher (22:25):
Entrepreneur

Katie (22:27):
Maybe. Yeah, so at WordCamp us, they convinced me to go with CEO, which doesn’t really mean anything, does it?

Marcus (22:34):
Do any of our titles really mean anything?

Katie (22:38):
You have an actual job market, so it might do.

Marcus (22:42):
I have the pleasure of getting to field this question many times a month because of traveling to Word camps without fail. Every time I get into an Uber to head to the airport, I get someone who gets to ask me what do I do? I usually share, I’m on the way to the airport for work, which opens the door for them to ask me what I do for work, like U to R. I’ve done lots of different things over the years and had different answers for this. Currently I start with that. I’m in community and events, which is completely true and makes total sense to a lot of people. Community events, I share with them that I travel to events, I talk to people about the web and things on the web. I do have the fortunate ability to share with people that I work for a company that a lot of people have heard of GoDaddy, for better or for worse, a lot of people know who GoDaddy is.

(23:38):
And I do get to lead with that, that I work from home for GoDaddy and I travel to events to share with the community. And then I try to judge and see where folks are both interest wise and maybe their understanding of the web. And I’ll lean into seeing if they’ve heard of WordPress before. And strangely enough, like you said too, Katie, that a fair number of people actually have heard of WordPress from, oh, my wife has this site for this thing that she does, and she likes to sell things there, talk about things there. And I do try to lean into that and then go into these events that I go to or part of this WordPress community, there’s a bunch of events all over the world and I get to travel to a lot of them in the US and occasionally overseas to just share with folks the things that we’re doing in WordPress and on the web and stuff.

(24:25):
And so I think it’s led to some really good conversations. Again, it used to start with, I’m the web developer, this is 10 years ago when I actually did more web development than I do now. But also the web is less new than it is more new than it is now. And so that came with a little bit more explain what that means. What’s a web developer right code that makes things show up on screen like Facebook? Sure, there are developers working on Facebook, mostly work for small businesses in town. And we tried to do their marketing and at that time I worked at an agency and so wore a lot of different hats, as they say. Did a lot of marketing, design development, social content writing. I’ve done all of that stuff. And so lean into maybe the thing that seems most interesting to the person I’m talking to and head down that route.

(25:20):
Oh, tell me more about this. Oh, I love design and art, and I’ll lean the conversation into more of the design stuff that I’ve done or, oh, that’s really cool that you get to talk to people. And so then I get to share with them. I really like hanging out with friends that I mostly talk to online or on Zoom calls and I get to see them in person, have deeper conversations with them or meet some new folks that are new to building things on the web and share with them in that process. Yeah, I mean it’s a lot of different things. The community and events role is a lot of different things and I’ve compiled a lot of different responsibilities over the years that I can tailor those conversations in whatever direction seems most interesting to the person I’m talking to.

Topher (26:05):
Yeah. I find that the closer in age a person is to college, the more likely they are to have heard of WordPress. I live in a college town, and so a lot of the wait staff at restaurants are college kids or have been in the last five years. They’re like, oh yeah, I know WordPress. They used it for something.

Katie (26:27):
That’s interesting because I was in the conversation at WordCamp us where we were looking around the room and everybody appeared to be like 30 plus at least. And we were having a conversation is WordPress aging? People in our forties were no longer feeling like really old. We might’ve done 10 years ago at a WordPress event. And so you are finding that younger people are still using WordPress are Yes,

Topher (26:57):
But they’re not going to word camps.

Katie (26:59):
That is the thing. Maybe they can’t afford to, maybe they’re it’s business owners who are therefore a bit older or something that go,

Topher (27:07):
And I find a lot of them don’t use WordPress anymore. They did once for a thing, for a class, for a project, for a club, and now they’re done with it, so they don’t use it.

Marcus (27:21):
It certainly has a little bit of a commodity feel to it. I think to some degree for the younger folks, it’s another tool in the tool bag. If I need to build something online, I can reach for that. But I dunno, I think it’s become common enough and widespread enough. It powers what, 40% of the internet or something? So a lot of people have clearly heard of it. It’s powering a large significant chunk of the web. So anybody even remotely in putting things on the web that’s likely come across it or heard of it, even if they don’t use it, it’s another tool. If you’re, I dunno, maybe something like Tesla, if you’re one of the hundred people that has a Tesla, yeah, you’re going to all the Tesla groups, you’re going to meet up with all the other Tesla owners, but as Tesla becomes Ford Fusion or some other car that there’s a million of on the road, you don’t have that necessarily that need to go be part of the owner’s group. It’s a thing that you use, you drive the car, you need to get to work and home.

Katie (28:27):
But isn’t it interesting that we have this dilemma of how to explain what we do to people? If you think back before the internet, before people worked online, did they have this problem, I’m trying to think of analogies. They could be a secretary or a doctor or something, and everybody knows what these roles are. They, we’ve got these random, newfangled invented jobs. We often make up our own roles as we just discussed, my ridiculously diverse role that you can’t really define. It’s a whole new thing. And I personally find that kind of frustrating because my friends and family have got these cool jobs. They’re a doctor or something. Everybody think, oh, that’s great, they’re a doctor, they’re successful, and

Topher (29:17):
What do you do?

Katie (29:19):
I’m not on a scale with them. You can’t just tell them how much money you earn or something in order to give them the context. Sometimes you want a bit of recognition with people, but actually they don’t have any idea of how it fits into a traditional profession. Have you ever found that? Oh

Topher (29:37):
Yeah. And what’s interesting is I think people like to compare, oh, this person’s more successful because they’re a doctor or a lawyer than that person because they’re just a marketing manager. You know what I mean? Regardless of how people should be judged on success and then you throw ’em a curve ball like our kind of job and they don’t know where to slot us. Is that a good thing? Are you an amazing person or are you just not cool?

Marcus (30:10):
Everyone’s an amazing person.

Topher (30:12):
Everyone’s an amazing person. Yeah.

Marcus (30:14):
Yeah. There’s definitely that tech divide though, right? Traditional versus tech divide and traditional has been around so long that the tech folks know what the traditional folks do for the most part, but the traditional folks don’t really know what to do with the tech folks because it’s just a different world. And I think that’s actually where one of the benefits of something like a WordCamp, because we all come together with people who understand, right from, I don’t know, you don’t know me, but we’re both in this space together and we both can understand what each other do pretty quickly.

Topher (30:50):
That is useful. There’s a certain amount of mental stress that goes along with not being able to articulate what you do.

Katie (30:57):
I found some people almost get a mental block with it. They don’t even want to understand both my sister and my daughter, both of whom should have a better understanding really. They know the word plugins and they’re just like, I don’t know what a plugin is. And they’re almost proud to not know. They don’t want to know. And I dunno where that attitude comes from In Covid, my daughter actually set up a website and she installed some of our plugins on it, and it was a whole nice little homeschool project and she’ll still say, I don’t know what a plugin is. It’s a good thing. And I dunno why people have this attitude that, oh, you work in tech. I don’t want to know the details.

Topher (31:42):
I don’t know.

Katie (31:43):
Marcus, I’m interested to know what many people you meet general people have heard of GoDaddy because clearly it’s a really huge company within the web sphere, but I have no kind of conception of how well-known companies at that site would be known more generally.

Marcus (32:02):
And I don’t know the full history, but GoDaddy’s been around for decades at this point, and it’s been in the public eye at different times with media and commercials and being on television, being on billboards and stuff. And I think we have something upwards 20 million. Don’t quote me on that. Plus domain holders, folks with domains. So obviously a large chunk of what I talk to people about is WordPress and WordPress hosting with GoDaddy, but GoDaddy is known globally for domain registration primarily. And so I think that’s an easy on-road for a lot of people is, oh yeah, I have a domain with you, or I have several domains with you because a lot of us like to collect domains pretending like we’re going to do something with them someday and then don’t. But myself included, I’m guilty of that. But GoDaddy is really one of the first large companies where you could easily register a domain back decades ago.

(33:04):
And so we’ve always been really big in that space. And so that’s a quick way in for a lot of people. Yeah, I have a domain with you and then great. But we also do WordPress hosting and WooCommerce hosting and really a couple dozen other things, which is part of my mission in the community is to care about the stuff that we’re doing with WordPress, but also some of the other stuff that we have payments and all that stuff, but domains just because we have so many domains registered to folks out there that a lot of folks have heard of GoDaddy just from, oh yeah, I needed a domain for something, or I wanted my own name.com way back when the internet was starting to boom and everyone was like, you have to get your own name so someone else doesn’t take it. And so a lot of people registered their name.com and GoDaddy was one of the first big players in that space. And so just the sheer volume of domain registrations out there that are at GoDaddy I think is an easier inroad to talk about some of the other stuff as well.

Katie (34:07):
Interesting. I was having a conversation with my husband Andy yesterday, about how high this goes and pretend to people not understanding what you do, and we were randomly speculating, does Matt Mullenweg have this problem when he meets an Andy or something that asks what he does and he’s at the top of the industry, but they won’t have heard of WordPress. So it’s interesting. It’s not even a hierarchical thing of where you are, it’s just the fact that you work in something and sometimes I describe him as the Mark Zuckerberg of WordPress, but if they haven’t heard of WordPress, then the word WordPress in that sentence makes it sound like nothing. I just wonder if someone even at that level struggles too.

Marcus (34:57):
I’ll bet.

Speaker 4 (34:57):
I’ll bet he does.

Marcus (34:58):
Yeah. If you think it’s frustrating to not feel like people understand where you are, imagine it’s probably humbling when you’re mad and you talk to someone, they’re like, I’m not in tech. I don’t really understand. And so you’re just anybody else to that person. Yeah,

Katie (35:16):
It’s hard to imagine because you get so much recognition within the industry and actually that does apply to different levels. When I talk to somebody general, there is zero chance they will have heard of band two, there’s maybe 40% chance or something they will have heard of WordPress. Whereas if you go to a WordCamp, suddenly 25% of people might have heard of Barn two or something. But it’s interesting, the different context and you feel like a nobody, and then you’re vaguely as somebody. And it’s interesting how it just differs.

Topher (35:51):
Community known, my wife and I made up a word for it, community known. And it is interesting to be one place where no one knows who you are and then go to someplace else where suddenly maybe quite a few people know who you are.

Marcus (36:08):
Almost nice though, if you listen to the celebrities movie, TV celebrities talk about how they can’t go anywhere without being recognized. You get a little bit of both that way.

Katie (36:19):
It’s quite nice. You can put it down. You can’t after a few years walk through a WordCamp without I doubt any of us can for a minute without somebody knowing you. That’s just how it works. But anywhere else in the world, obviously. But yeah, if that was your life,

Marcus (36:37):
Just another person.

Katie (36:38):
Yeah.

Marcus (36:39):
Awesome. I think it’s been a good chat. Topher, before we close it out, I want to make sure that you have a chance to share with folks where they can learn more about Media Forge about you, about any of the things that you’re doing, how they can contact you,

Topher (36:53):
Media Forge Pro. That’s one of the reasons I put productions into the names I got The Pro.

Marcus (36:59):
Nice.

Topher (37:00):
Yeah, so that’s the website for it. Topher at Media Forge Pro on all the socials. Topher one Kenobi, that’s a number one and an E in the end of Kenobi. Yeah, so that’s where to find me.

Marcus (37:10):
Awesome. Thanks for coming on and joining us, Topher and chatting through Media Forge and the difficulties that we have in sharing with folks what it is that we do. And if nothing else, that’s plus one more point for going to WordCamp and sharing your experiences and being around your people.

Topher (37:31):
Yeah, no kidding.

Marcus (37:33):
Thanks Katie.

Katie (37:33):
Thanks a lot.

Topher (37:34):
Thanks for having me.

Marcus (37:35):
Thanks everyone.