Today on Channel 4, in The Sh*t Show series, Bob Dunn and Nathan Wrigley tackle the fascinating topic of fame: what it means in our modern, hyper-connected world and how our perception of celebrity has evolved over time. From royal visits scheduled to the exact minute to unexpected close encounters with iconic figures like Willie Nelson and Harrison Ford, the hosts explore how fame shapes lives both for those in the spotlight and those watching from afar.
Through stories of internet influencers, the unique pressures faced by digital celebrities, and the stark contrast between online personas and real lives, Bob Dunn and Nathan Wrigley question whether fame is truly worth pursuing, or if anonymity might actually be the sweeter deal. Join them as they reflect on the nature of legacy, the fleeting moments of popularity, and the joys of simply being unknown.
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Takeaways
Fame is Overrated: Bob considers fame to be highly overrated and undesirable due to the loss of personal freedom and constant public scrutiny, a sentiment Nathan echoes throughout the conversation.
Personal Encounters with Fame: Bob shares stories of serving Willie Nelson and meeting Oliver Stone and others, noting how celebrity interactions often highlight the isolating aspects of fame, with celebrities seeking quiet anonymity.
Extreme Measures for the Famous: Nathan recounts a story about the security and logistics around a visit from the Queen, illustrating the intense, regimented, and even invasive requirements placed on the most famous individuals.
Public Fascination with Celebrities: Both discuss how crowds gather to observe famous people in mundane situations, suggesting a disconnect between public perception and the reality of celebrity lives.
Digital Fame vs. Traditional Fame: Bob and Nathan compare digital influencers to traditional celebrities, questioning the depth and recognition of internet fame when compared to movie stars or political figures.
Transience and Nature of Online Personas: Bob describes meeting a well-known, controversial blogger who turned out to be quiet and friendly in person, pointing out that many internet personas are constructed for attention, not a real reflection of character.
Fame Within Niches: Nathan notes how figures like Matt Mullenweg are extremely famous within specific communities but largely anonymous outside those circles, highlighting the compartmentalization of modern fame.
Historical Perspective on Fame: Both reflect on how fame has changed over centuries—from local or niche recognition to global and instantaneous, thanks to technology and mass media.
Fleeting and Shallow Nature of Fame: Nathan muses about historical figures like Alexander the Great, indicating that while names endure, actual remembrance fades—most people know little about even the most famous individuals.
The Desire for Legacy: They discuss the human impulse to not just be recognized but remembered, though in reality, even those who achieve great fame are often quickly forgotten after their moment passes.
Waning Fame and Obscurity: Nathan considers the experiences of those who were once famous but faded into obscurity, questioning whether brief fame is ultimately satisfying or dissatisfying.
Celebrity’s Craving for Normalcy: An anecdote about Harrison Ford picking up a hitchhiker illustrates that famous people may treasure interactions where they are treated as ordinary, not idolized.
Gratitude for Anonymity: Nathan and Bob conclude by expressing their appreciation for anonymity, enjoying the ability to lead normal lives without the burdens or constraints fame brings.
Questions This Episode Answers
Q: How do celebrities like the Queen or Brad Pitt manage their public appearances to avoid unwanted attention?
A: According to Nathan Wrigley at 06:10, extremely famous people like the Queen have highly orchestrated routines to minimize interactions with the public—routes are planned down to the minute, public spaces are cleared, and even meals and security details are meticulously controlled. This level of planning ensures they avoid crowds, maintain privacy, and prevent security risks as much as possible.v
Q: What is the difference between traditional fame and digital or online fame?
A: Bob Dunn and Nathan Wrigley discuss how traditional fame is often tied to being visually recognized through roles such as actors or musicians, while digital fame is more nuanced and sometimes less visible since many influential people on the internet are not immediately recognized in real life (08:27). Online fame has also become easier to achieve but may not come with the same widespread recognition outside niche communities.
Q: Can someone be very famous in one context but anonymous in another?
A: Yes, as discussed at 11:05, figures like Matt Mullenweg are extremely recognizable and almost celebrated in WordPress circles, but outside their niche, they can walk through public spaces without being noticed. This highlights the situational nature of fame, especially for digital creators and industry leaders.
Q: Do people behave differently online compared to how they are in real life?
A: Bob Dunn shares a story at 12:13 about meeting an outspoken blogger in person, only to find that the individual was much quieter and friendlier than their online persona suggested. This experience illustrates how online personas can differ significantly from real-life behavior, often shaped by audience expectations or the need for attention.
Q: Has the internet made it easier for people to become famous?
A: Yes, as Bob Dunn notes at 23:08, the internet and social media have dramatically lowered the barriers to fame, allowing people to become widely known for actions or personalities that would not have made them famous in the past. This democratization has also led to fame being sometimes viewed as less meaningful.
Q: Do children now aspire to digital fame, like becoming YouTubers or influencers?
A: Nathan Wrigley and Bob Dunn reflect at 24:21 on how children’s aspirations have shifted from traditional jobs to wanting to become YouTubers or influencers due to their exposure to digital celebrities and the appeal of online recognition.
Q: Is being famous truly a way to leave a legacy and be remembered after you’re gone?
A: The conversation at 25:25 points out that although many people seek fame to be remembered, it’s unlikely that most will be remembered for who they truly were. Nathan Wrigley uses the example of historical figures like Alexander the Great to illustrate that, apart from a name and vague achievements, the real person is often forgotten with time.
Q: What might it feel like for a celebrity to lose their fame and become forgotten?
A: Nathan Wrigley speculates at 27:10 about celebrities who had brief moments of fame, pondering whether they feel relief or disappointment as their notoriety fades. The answer is ambiguous, revealing that the experience likely varies, with some appreciating privacy and others longing for recognition.
Timestamped Overview
- 00:00 Meeting Willie Nelson at the restaurant
- 05:28 Queen’s visit scheduled precision
- 06:41 Pub security arrangements
- 10:34 Leveraging YouTube Fame for TV
- 19:47 Fame before mass media
- 21:06 Global fame and loss of privacy
- 23:50 Childhood dream jobs evolving
- 29:01 Unexpected chat with Harrison Ford
Episode Transcript
Bob Dunn:
Hey Nathan, how you doing?
Nathan Wrigley:
Yeah, good, Bob. How’s it going?
Bob Dunn:
Pretty good, pretty good. Life’s treating me okay. A little, little bit warmer than I like, but hey, you know.
Nathan Wrigley:
Yeah, yeah, the world, world is—
Bob Dunn:
It’s warmer everywhere. There’s people in a lot worse condition than me, so.
Nathan Wrigley:
Yeah, yeah, even, even in Blighty, the UK, UK. We’ve had extraordinary temperature. But I have a question for you, Bob. These podcasts, we always do them like we throw a subject out there. So I’m going to ask you this question. What do you think about fame?
Bob Dunn:
Fame. Hmm. Overrated?
Nathan Wrigley:
Yeah.
Bob Dunn:
Yeah, big time.
Nathan Wrigley:
Did you ever want to be famous? Was there ever a period of your life where you thought—
Bob Dunn:
You know, I didn’t. You know, when I think back, there was never like— I, at one point, of course, as a small child, I might think, oh, I’d like to be in the band, you know, watching the bands or something. But I never thought of it in terms of, I want to be famous. I just thought in terms of what they do and how much fun they have. Well, it looked like they were having fun.
Nathan Wrigley:
Don’t you think it’s curious though, that like, if— have you ever stood in proximity to somebody who’s like really, really famous. I honestly don’t think I have. So, you know, I’m talking like, you know, the King of England or Brad Pitt or something like that. You know, somebody so utterly recognisable that more or less wherever they go, everybody’s eyeballs are locked onto them. I’ve never been in proximity to that, but I’ve always thought, how…
Bob Dunn:
Yeah.
Nathan Wrigley:
Utterly horrible. Must that be?
Bob Dunn:
Oh, it’s gotta be. Yeah, it’s crazy. The only times— let’s see, who did I— okay, so I did. And of course, the restaurant was almost empty. I bartended in a restaurant and I served Willie Nelson lunch and got to talk to him a little bit and then actually got him to sign a wine bottle that I bought for my sister because she was a big fan. But, you know, it was, it was a quiet There was hardly anybody in there. He was in there with his ex-wife. And then I was at a fundraiser, which is kind of a long story I’m not going to get into. But Oliver Stone was there. Senator Kerry was there from Massachusetts. I believe that’s where he’s from. And there was from an old sitcom. And this is quite way back, quite a few years. From an old sitcom. Mary Tyler Moore in the US. The actor Lou Grant was there. So I actually talked to Oliver Stone. He wasn’t too thrilled about it. But, you know, the fame got to him. And it gets me thinking about how people gather just to watch them go in some building or into a restaurant or— Yeah. Yeah.
Nathan Wrigley:
Like, what is it they’re hoping to see? I don’t know. Just like, look, they’ve got an extra arm. Or, you know, look, they’re 12 feet taller than the rest of us. Or, you know, or look at the aura that they have. You know, they’re literally glowing.
Bob Dunn:
Yeah.
Nathan Wrigley:
I mean, no, they’re just, look, they’re getting out of a car and now they’re getting into a car and they went through a door and they probably want to be left alone. But how curious. So the example that you gave of Willie Nelson, you know, can you imagine his life where he’s constantly trying to duck into quiet places where there’s literally nobody and he maybe even has to have people who get out the car and just sort of Scope out the street and see if there’s anybody there. All right, right, you can come out now and then go into that bar. And then he gets there, it’s really quiet. And then you, the bartender, go, hey, look, here’s a bottle of wine, will you sign it? And he’s face planting with his head.
Bob Dunn:
But that’s funny because I was really hesitant to ask that. I just kind of served them. I said, oh cool, when I went up to them, oh cool, you’re Willie Nelson.
Nathan Wrigley:
He said, yep.
Bob Dunn:
I said, nice.
Nathan Wrigley:
Nice.
Bob Dunn:
You know, I kind of left it at that. And when I’d go back, he’d talk a little bit and stuff. But, and I left a bottle of wine for later. I said, you know, you probably get this crap all the time, but you know, this would be great if you could get this for my sister. But yeah, it’s, it’s that fame of, yeah, it’s, I couldn’t handle it. It would, I mean, I wouldn’t want to be in that position because, Your life is no longer yours.
Nathan Wrigley:
No, and that, I think that’s the thing. So, I maybe have said this story to you in the past. I’ve certainly said it publicly a few times, but this is, this is, I think, the absolute extreme of fame. And the only reason I know this story is because somebody that lives very close to me worked in the pub where this story happened. And it goes a bit like this. Many, many years ago, when the Queen was still alive, Queen Elizabeth II, Mm-hmm. She was due to visit the village near where I live. And the, my kids were at the local primary school and the headteacher of the primary school, you know, everybody knew like a whole year in advance that the Queen was going to come. So, the headteacher of the school said, phoned up the necessary people at Buckingham Palace and said, do you know when the Queen’s going to be coming by? And they said, hold on a minute. And they said, yep, we know exactly when the Queen’s coming by. She’s going to go past your school at 12 minutes past 3. So, bear in mind, this is like a year out. They knew that it was going to be 12 minutes past 3 that they needed, all the kids needed to line up and wave the flag and what have you. So, can you imagine that? Like, I don’t know where I’m going to be at 12 minutes past 3 today. But they knew that she was going to be in a car going here, there, and everywhere. And, you know, exactly what have you. A friend of mine, was it— is the person randomly who controls the traffic lights for the municipality where I live. And the reason they can be so confident that the Queen is going to get somewhere is the Queen doesn’t do traffic jams because they make all of the lights green. So, it doesn’t matter where she is in the country, the lights go green, the police clear the road, she gets to go at the exact same speed limit as she should actually do. Anyway.
Bob Dunn:
Then…
Nathan Wrigley:
She ended up driving. She was driving, and she went to a pub. And this is the bit that I was getting to. The pub obviously knew where she was going to be, and at what time she was going to arrive, which door she was going to go into, what seat she was going to sit in to eat her meal, what meal they should prepare for her, and what ingredients could or could not be put into it. They also sent, on multiple occasions, people in, like, scuba diving gear to make sure the drains hadn’t been like filled up with Semtex or something. And then, and then they have somebody, forgive me for getting into this topic, but here we go.
Bob Dunn:
No, bless.
Nathan Wrigley:
They have somebody to like basically evacuate the toilet after she’s been because they don’t let her flush her stuff away because there might be genetic material or some interesting information that somebody could capture. From her stuff. And so, anyway, I can’t imagine a more extreme version of fame than that. God, that is. But imagine like a Brad Pitt. Every single time he goes out into the open, everybody wants to be in proximity to him, to be close to him, to watch him, to see what he’s doing, to video the time he messes something up in a small way, or the time he loses his rag, or, you know, doesn’t behave impeccably or what have you.
Bob Dunn:
Right.
Nathan Wrigley:
And that’s no life, is it? Is that a life? I don’t know. It doesn’t feel like it.
Bob Dunn:
No, I mean, they obviously deal with it, and they must know that potential is there. And, you know, it’s interesting, the whole thing of fame. And when you think, I mean, The listeners are probably saying, what does this have to do with the web? But if you think of fame, digital fame—
Nathan Wrigley:
Oh.
Bob Dunn:
You know, I mean, you compare it to the people that do go out, the actors and everything that are out there moving around, or, you know, who knows what, but how many— and maybe they, you know, label them more as influencers, which I don’t really think is equal to fame because so many people call themselves influencers. But in a way, the very top digital people, it’s like, to be honest with you, if I was walking along, and of course, maybe it’s only ’cause I never watch them ’cause I can’t basically stand them. If Joe Rogan walked by me, I wouldn’t know.
Nathan Wrigley:
Yeah.
Bob Dunn:
And I wonder how many people would know, you know, for how, Behind the mic, behind the screen. They’re not going to, you know, maybe they go to stuff. But I wonder how often they— and he may be a bad example because he does have a lot of people that watch and listen to him. But a lot of these people that become famous on the web, what are their lives like when they’re out on foot, you know, walking around?
Nathan Wrigley:
Yeah, I think maybe we’ve reached a point where those people who are, let’s say, YouTube famous, Uh, I think maybe there’s a moment that has been already passed where they, they are getting into that territory. You know, a few of them, Joe Rogan’s a great example, isn’t he? Because he’s, I think he’s probably got one of the biggest followings. I imagine, you knowrealize, there’s a few that have more, but he’s certainly quite recognizable. But I was, curiously, I was watching TV last night and there’s a, there’s a TV show that I’ve never seen before. And, um, and the, the person who was presenting the program, is actually from YouTube. They’ve done so well on YouTube that the BBC have picked them up.
Bob Dunn:
Oh.
Nathan Wrigley:
And it’s not like they now work for the BBC. They still do their YouTube stuff, but for this series, they’ve got them in because they realize that that fame, I guess, that they’ve brought from YouTube will immediately drop into the show’s ratings. So, let’s say they’ve got 20 million followers on YouTube or something, I guess it— they’d put another video out on YouTube to say, watch my new thing on the BBC, and the BBC immediately get that 20 million viewers for free, if you know what I mean, which is kind of curious. We have an interesting thing in our space though, don’t we? Because we have the co-founder of WordPress, Matt Mullenweg, who in the scenario of a WordPress event is really famous. You know, if you’re at like a WordCamp or something and Matt is there, He’s got that sort of— he’s got that effect, hasn’t he? You know, all the eyeballs turn and look at him. But I don’t know this for sure, but I’m guessing that when Matt returns to his home and walks down the high street, I imagine it’s life as normal, like you and I, you know, he’s probably not recognised in the same way, but that must be weird to drop into and out of, you know, interesting.
Bob Dunn:
Yeah, it is strange. And when you think of— there’s so many people that become very known on the web for a certain persona, or they may even be, you know, you kind of see their photo everywhere. But if you were to see them in person, you might not recognize them right away because a lot of them, you know, don’t keep their photo updated or something.
Nathan Wrigley:
Yeah.
Bob Dunn:
You know, that’s kind of a weird thing. But also a lot of people are totally different human beings in person than they are on the web. I mean, an example of that is back in the— oh, I don’t know, it must have been around 2006, ’07. I don’t know, somewhere mid to late that decade. I was attending a lot of huge blogging conferences. There was one that went around BlogWorld that was gigantic. It was like all the top bloggers were there. So again, it was more of an even a bubble in the sense of who is so-called famous and who isn’t. And there’s this one guy, and I cannot for the life of me remember his name. But he was online, just a rude person. I mean, just foul-mouthed, mostly foul-mouthed, not so much maybe rude as just really foul-mouthed. And I met him in person, and he was the most quiet, inconspicuous person you could ever meet, friendly. And, you know, we got talking and it was just like, oh yeah, where do you live? I mean, it was that online image they put of themselves out because that’s what people want. But in reality—
Nathan Wrigley:
Oh.
Bob Dunn:
And it’s kind of like actors. I mean, they’re, you know, when they’re on stage or doing something different in real life, who knows how they are, you know, personally. But, but it, Was a very strange experience. And it was kind of cool because I thought, oh, I got to meet him. And yeah, he really is an okay guy because I didn’t ever, you know, pay attention to him for that reason.
Nathan Wrigley:
Yeah, it’s kind of interesting. Most people would like to present like a calmer version of themselves online than they actually have. But he’s gone for the opposite because presumably, I think being incendiary and controversial and loud, it probably has real benefits to getting an audience and capturing the audience and keeping everybody coming back because, you know, everybody likes a drama, don’t they, at some point? So that’s interesting. And he was really timid and normal. That’s so weird. Yeah. I’ve never really courted fame, and in all honesty, I don’t think Let’s say, for example, I, I don’t know, randomly became famous tomorrow. I don’t think I’m very well equipped to, to actually deal with it because I’m not that guarded. You know, I don’t really have a notion of whether I should say a certain thing because, you know, there might be the world’s media watching. I don’t know if I’ve got that in me.
Bob Dunn:
Yeah.
Nathan Wrigley:
But I certainly don’t think I want the consequences of that. But, you know, I guess certain industries, like if you go into, I don’t know, if you’re in a band, Or, you know, you’re into acting. Isn’t that the point? I mean, is it possible to be like a successful actor and not be famous? I don’t know how that would work.
Bob Dunn:
Yeah, it’s traditionally entertainment. You know, like you said that sports figures, the same thing.
Nathan Wrigley:
Yeah.
Bob Dunn:
You know, they become very much— I’m sure there’s people that would be recognized after this World Cup.
Nathan Wrigley:
Right.
Bob Dunn:
On the street easily because her face was— and a lot of it was surrounded by controversy. So, you know, there was that as well. So, yeah, it’s an interesting thing because famous was probably more implied to people like actors and politicians. Politicians are, yeah, they’re famous in a different way, of course, you know, because of what they do and stuff. But writers even, you know, I mean, they used to be, and there’s still some that are around. I mean, you could say Stephen King is famous because everybody knows his writing.
Nathan Wrigley:
Right.
Bob Dunn:
And he does have an unusual enough face that you probably would recognize him.
Nathan Wrigley:
Well, if you’ve seen it, you would probably remember him.
Bob Dunn:
Yeah.
Nathan Wrigley:
But I would imagine that all, you know, a tiny percentage of the people who read his literature actually know what he looks like. I say that, maybe there’s photos of him inside of his book and things. I don’t actually know, but that’s a really good example of being famous and yet not needing to be recognized. Yeah, that’s interesting.
Bob Dunn:
Yeah, ’cause when you think about it, like if you look at every, across the board with that online and everything is you have to have something Visually that you’re constantly in front of. I mean, actors are a perfect example. If you’ve done, you know, 50 movies and you’re a so-called famous star and stuff, yeah, people are seeing you and they’re seeing you in movie after movie and they’re seeing you wherever you are. If you’re on, you know, videos on social and stuff like that. So that definitely gives that visibility, fame.
Nathan Wrigley:
a trigger. Hmm.
Bob Dunn:
Where, like, almost going back to some of the online stuff, if you’re just online, you know, people aren’t, in most cases, staring at you, even if you do a, you know, unless you’re very character-driven. You know, if you’re talking for an hour several times a week, it’s like, no, not everybody that watches will maybe remember you the next time they see you on the street or wherever, because they’re not really focused on you entertaining them versus just creating this content and having a conversation. I don’t know if that makes sense.
Nathan Wrigley:
Yeah, it does. Yeah, I’m just wondering what the internet has done to fame. So I’m imagining, let’s rewind the clock, like, I don’t know, 500 years. So long before Most people, I imagine, probably couldn’t read. Certainly there was no way of, like, producing an accurate image of anybody, or at least mass-producing it. You know, I’m not entirely sure when the printing press came along, but I know that it was, you know, it’s since 500 years. I would imagine that the King of England, probably the most famous person in England, and I’m using famous there in a very different sense than we use it now. I imagine if you could helicopter them into a city, and dress them up like every other peasant in that city, they could probably just walk down the street like everybody else. Because, like, how would you know what the King of England looked like unless you’d seen them?
Bob Dunn:
It’s the gangsters from the— in the US from the early years, you know, during that period. Often nobody knew a gangster when they saw a famous gangster because there wasn’t— they never got photos of them. There was no way knowing until this person comes up and says, hey, You know, I’m Al Capone. Nice to meet you.
Nathan Wrigley:
That’s crazy. But now, like, of the 7.5, I think it might even be 8 billion people on planet Earth now, I don’t know what the proportion is with a device in their pocket. Let’s imagine it’s a lot. Now fame is instantaneous and it’s global. So, you know, I would imagine if you go throughout the world, more or less anybody showing them a picture of, let’s say, George Clooney or the King of England or Donald Trump or any of these, I would imagine that they could totally accurately identify them. And, and so that, I guess that makes fame even harder because that anonymity piece, really the only way to isolate yourself is to, is to close the windows, close the doors, pull the curtains, and just, you know, just sit in your, sit in your own home.
Bob Dunn:
Yeah, crawl up and ball in the corner, you know.
Nathan Wrigley:
Yeah. So in a way, it, you, it feels like being really, really, really, really famous is a bit of a prison. Um, you sort of consign yourself to gated communities and closing, you know, manning the barriers and hiring bodyguards so that people don’t do weird things to you.
Bob Dunn:
Gosh.
Nathan Wrigley:
Yeah.
Bob Dunn:
Well, and it’s interesting when you think about that on the, you know, thinking about what you just said over the years. For example, I’ll go back to the gangsters. You know, they were considered famous. I mean, they were almost like celebrities back then, you know, because—
Nathan Wrigley:
Yeah.
Bob Dunn:
And then, so until things became where the masses could become famous, you know, because you had to do certain things to become famous, write a book, and, you know, sell billions of books or whatever in history is when it came to online, suddenly fame became, or how you label famous, became a Wild West. So, you know, you could become famous because you’re an asshole, you know, and that’s what made you famous was being a certain personality because you were able to do it online and reach people that—
Nathan Wrigley:
Yeah.
Bob Dunn:
Normally, if this guy just walked around the city being an asshole, you know, they don’t suddenly become famous unless they maybe kill several people or something, you know? So it’s, it’s a real easy way to slip into fame these days.
Nathan Wrigley:
Yeah.
Bob Dunn:
And especially with social media and stuff compared to any other time. And, and so it kind of makes it a little, More meaningless.
Nathan Wrigley:
I wonder if you were to poll, so when I was a kid, the sort of jobs that almost every, so I’m thinking of when I was like 5 and 6 and 7, and that the role that like the jobs, you know, you haven’t really given it a moment’s thought, but when somebody says to you, what are you going to be when you’re older? You know, I might say something like helicopter pilot, or I want to be a soldier, or I want to be, I don’t know, I want to whatever, you know, imagine footballer or whatever it is. I wonder now if that calculus has changed. I wonder if a lot of people want to be, I want to be a YouTuber, you know, I want to be, I want to be online and—
Bob Dunn:
Yeah, I want to be an influencer on Instagram.
Nathan Wrigley:
Right, influencer. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I wonder how that’s skewed and whether or not that’s going to be a thing.
Bob Dunn:
Yeah. You know, I wouldn’t doubt if that is a thing because it’s like, yeah, they’re exposed to so much of this and they see, you know, and it all, Depending if you’re going in it for money, or you’re going in it just for the being seen, being known. I mean, we’re both, it’s interesting.
Nathan Wrigley:
I’m going to just quickly talk about history again. And so I imagine many people wish to be famous. I could be wrong about this. Maybe I’ve captured this entirely incorrectly. But not just to be recognised, because I think that’s a part of it. You wish to be seen and, you know, for people to go, oh, look, it’s you, but also to be remembered.
Bob Dunn:
Exactly.
Nathan Wrigley:
To be like, you know, a person whose name carries on after you pass away. But think about, think about somebody who’s, you know, one of the most famous people of all time. Let’s go for, I don’t know, Alexander the Great. Everybody probably knows that name. I imagine some people have got a handle on what He did and what have you. But if you, if you actually think about it, what do you know of him? Like, actually him? And the answer is nothing. You just know, yeah, you just know that there was a person called Alexander and, you know, and then I don’t suppose he was born in— Hey, you are Alexander the Great. Yeah. But he became Alexander the Great. You don’t know anything about him. You know, there’s no, there’s no bit that you can latch onto. And so, there’s a bit of that. You know, if I was to court fame and make that the primary reason for my life, you’re not— the legacy that you think you have probably isn’t what it actually is.
Bob Dunn:
Mm-hmm.
Nathan Wrigley:
Um, you know, you, you think that you’ve got this legacy, that you’re going to be remembered for all time, and it, it won’t be that. You’ll be forgotten. And you’ll just sort of fade into obscurity and give it enough time and probably people will forget about you altogether.
Bob Dunn:
Yeah, that actually makes sense. Because you think of, you know, how many people have become famous. And how maybe in the front of people’s minds after they’re gone, they don’t really think of them as famous anymore because of the reason why they became famous.
Nathan Wrigley:
Right. Yeah. Yeah. I wonder what it would be like to be famous and then for the world to forget about you. So, let’s imagine, I don’t know, in the 1980s, there’s loads of bands that came along, had a hit, had maybe 2 hits, and for that, for a brief moment in time, they were everywhere. You know, they were on the telly, they were in magazines, and everybody recognised their face, and they never had another hit. You know, and they faded into obscurity. I wonder if, I wonder if that’s a good thing. You know, I wonder if they look back and think, God, I had a skirt with it there and it was really interesting. And, or I wonder if there’s some sense of, I was nearly famous and nearly got to be famous, but I didn’t, I didn’t keep it going. And my fame is insufficient. Right.
Bob Dunn:
It’s like that 5 minutes of fame, right? They say.
Nathan Wrigley:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Bob Dunn:
Yeah. Well, most of those musicians come back when they’re 75 and they just embarrass themselves.
Nathan Wrigley:
Yeah, that’s right. Well, needless to say, I’m not going to be famous. I do nothing which requires fame or—
Bob Dunn:
No.
Nathan Wrigley:
Yeah. I want to be that guy who is remembered for nothing. Nobody remembers me after my children have moved on and they’ve got children. That’ll be it. My legacy is that I lived and that was it. A friend of mine, I say he’s a friend, he’s— many, many years since I’ve still seen— since I’ve seen him last, but he was hitchhiking in Oregon years and years ago and stuck out his thumb and he was picked up by Harrison Ford. You know, the Star Wars actor. Harrison Ford picked him up and he immediately clocked Oh, Harrison Ford’s just picked me up. And so, he was faced with this real dilemma. Like, he knows that I know who he is. Now, what do I do? Do I be a sycophant and just like, oh, Harrison Ford, you’re so great. I’ve seen all your films. Or do I— do we just have a chat? And he went for pretending like he didn’t know him. And they ended up having a really deep conversation about his passion, which is fly fishing. It turns out Harrison Ford had a lot to say on that subject. And so, for several hours, They rode in the car, had this really interesting, deep conversation about a subject which obviously both of them were into. And at the end, Harrison let him out at his front door. He said goodbye. And maybe there— maybe that interaction was all the richer because for a brief moment, Harrison got to be in proximity to somebody who, you know, he could at least sort of pretend, gosh, They didn’t know me. That was nice. Yeah.
Bob Dunn:
Yeah. And you wonder if somebody in that position would also think, hmm, I wonder if he knew who I was.
Nathan Wrigley:
Right.
Bob Dunn:
And you just didn’t want to say it.
Nathan Wrigley:
Yeah. Yeah.
Bob Dunn:
Yeah. And then in a way that would be a compliment to him because they wanted to just talk to him as a normal person that picks you up hitchhiking versus, hey, Harrison Ford, let’s talk about—
Nathan Wrigley:
what did you do in that movie?
Bob Dunn:
I love that one part.
Nathan Wrigley:
How’s Princess Leia, Harrison? Yeah. I mean, you can imagine him like, get out, just get out.
Bob Dunn:
Yeah, really. We’ve gone far enough. That’s it.
Nathan Wrigley:
But again, like, it’s kind of interesting that he has the character in him, or did have the character in him, despite his great fame, to take a hitchhiker. You know, that’s kind of—
Bob Dunn:
That’s what I was thinking, because maybe it’s Yeah. Maybe it’s fun for him because he likes to see how people react.
Nathan Wrigley:
Right.
Bob Dunn:
Like, is somebody going to—
Nathan Wrigley:
Yeah, I’m guessing he also had a normal life.
Bob Dunn:
Yeah, he probably enjoys when he has a normal conversation.
Nathan Wrigley:
A bit of downtime. That’s right. So anyway, there we go. That’s fame.
Bob Dunn:
Yeah, that’s fame. Interesting to talk about. And yeah, it’s all you famous people out there that are listening. Or you consider yourself famous. Yeah.
Nathan Wrigley:
Enjoy your famous lives. And we will, we will, we will wallow in our anonymity and enjoy it and luxuriate in it because we can do things like go to the shops.
Bob Dunn:
Yeah, right, exactly. Alrighty, well, thanks, Nathan. Always a pleasure.
Nathan Wrigley:
Yeah, take it easy, Bob. Until next time.
