A Rocking Good UX Designer Passionate About Accessibility

Ronald: Hello and welcome to another episode Do the Woo. I’m here joined by Piccia Neri and my co-host, Marcus. How are you both? Nice to see you and hear you.

Piccia: I’m very well, thank you very much. Very happy to be here.

Ronald: Yeah. We sound very familiar, Piccia, because we go back quite a few years. We have worked together in the past. We’ve met each other on various WordCamps and other events, so this is really cool to be talking to you. I’m so pleased about that.

Piccia: Yeah, it’s really nice. I was thinking about that today, actually. About how many actual, real friends you make with the whole WordPress story. Honestly. I was remembering. I was actually reminding myself of … I think we met through Paul Lacey, Ronald. Didn’t we?

Ronald: Yes, that’s right. Yeah.

Piccia: We met through Paul Lacey, we worked together. I got you on a project. You were so patient with that project. You were amazing. And then work in London, for sure. Work in New York. Quite notably, we were both lost.

Ronald: Ah.

Piccia: We were lost trying to find the party, and work, and Porto, and the Porto Airport. So, lots of places. And now I’m very pleased to meet you, Marcus. I’m sure there’ll be many more chances to meet.

Spending two years growing her knowledge on accessibility

Ronald: Yeah. Maybe I need to ask you first then to introduce yourself, not just to Marcus, but to everybody else. What do you do and what have you been doing with WordPress for the last couple years? And by the way, it’s great to remember all these parties and bumping into each other. That is fantastic.

Piccia: So my name is Piccia Neri. I am a designer. I started working with WordPress the first time because of, like many of us, I wanted to create my own site. Actually, the first time I used WordPress was for a one sketch a day site because there was no Instagram. Can you imagine?

Back to the past two years, I’ve mostly been improving my knowledge and understanding of accessibility, really. Yes. Mostly that’s what I’ve been doing. And what’s it like to use, especially e-commerce sites, in fact. I mean not especially, but one of them, and I have a story about that, but e-commerce sites for people that experience the web in a different way than what is considered this word: normal. Normal. There is no normal, really.

But yeah, that’s mostly what I’ve been concentrating on, but also designing much more because I spent a few years mostly creating content rather than anything, and now I’m really back into designing and doing accessible design specifically. And I am loving it, never going back. That’s what I need to do.

Ronald: Nice.

Piccia: That’s my dharma. Yeah.

Ronald: I remember you setting up and running a small, short courses, UX courses, but also on typography. Is that work that you still continue doing and is it the Design Geeks, I recall? That’s one of your brands that you worked with. What’s going on with that?

Piccia: So Design for Geeks, I’m actually discontinuing. I’ve grown past it, let’s say, but I am definitely carrying on with the education site because I love it. It’s what I’m most interested in and because once you get into accessibility, it becomes a little bit of a mission, and what you see all the time is where people are not doing it and actually missing out on great opportunities for that reason. So, definitely. In fact, the next course that I’ve got coming up is an accessible typography course, so I’m still fixated on topography. But yes, among other things.

Creative accessibility

But another focus is accessible creativity or creative accessibility because you know there’s this myth that accessibility is if you make a site accessible, it’s expensive, and it’s ugly, and it can’t be creative and I call BS to that. So that’s also one of my focuses because in March, I am giving a talk at a UX conference in Copenhagen that is not a WordCamp! Can you imagine? The world outside! How exciting is that?

Ronald: Honestly, I can’t imagine.

Piccia: Staggering. Staggering. That’s what I want to do at that conference. They accepted my proposal of a talk on creative accessibility or accessible creativity. I think creative accessibility maybe is better. I’m not sure. That’s another one of my focuses at the moment, but the educational site, always. Yes.

Ronald: Can you share a little bit more about this myth of creative accessibility and maybe along the way, last couple of years, examples of maybe clients or other designers who sort of challenged you on that and how you’ve circumnavigated that?

Piccia: Yeah, that’s a really good question. Thank you, Ronald.

In fact, this is something. I live in Spain. My background is that I’m Italian, moved to London full-time. I’d been there sort of on and off, and then I moved there full-time ’98, in 1998, and stayed there until 2016 when I moved to Spain. Valencia. Obviously one of the first things that I did was check, get in touch with a WordPress community, and of course I’m involved with a WordCamp, with a meetup, and I’ve got lots of friends here and some of them are designers. One in particular is a close friend and we always have sort of rows about this. I mean, you know Spanish and Italian. It’s not a real row, but it sounds like it.

So I gave a talk at the local meetup here in Valencia in January and we ended up having it online because we were still in throws of the virus. Nobody, really, was trusting a live event. But it was great. We managed to have a really lively conversation, even if it was online. The talk was, in fact, what I then developed into the WordCamp hero talk, which was called Design for Conversions. Because, by the way, I have a conference that’s called Design for Conversions. There’ll be another edition in May. It’s sort of veiled. It’s accessibility under disguise.

So basically, quite a few people in the audience brought that up, just saying, “Well, if we do all the things that you say we should do, then we can’t be creative.” And I loved that remark because it allows me to launch into my, you know, rant. Really. No, not really. Not a rant. Yes, I’ll call it a rant.

But it is very interesting because my point was, okay, what do you call creative then? And what they call creative is stuff that moves. It’s animations, it’s things like that.

If creativity equals animation

First of all, if creativity equals animation, then let’s set fire to the Louvre or the Uffizi because nothing moves in there. Nothing is animated. I mean, does creativity need to equal stuff that moves on a screen? No, it doesn’t. And can you be creative even if you don’t use a fancy tool tip? The answer is yes. And if you want to know how, I have two types of examples. Mainly. I’m sure there’s more, but I like to just bring up two not to sort of confuse, muddle the issue too much.

The first one is, before I went to digital, I was sort of a pure creative designer. I’ve done all sorts. I’ve done lots of branding, but I’ve also done lots of design for film. That involved doing creative concepts and so on. That’s the one thing that you can do to use creativity in a way that’s accessible. And I can give you two examples of that.

For instance, I mean one that’s really silly. I mean, I don’t know when this interview is going to come out, but my site is a work in progress. At the moment I’m not happy with the Photoshop treatment of my images.

My friend Anne Bovelett, who’s also a WordPress person and an accessibility advocate and designer and so on, she suggested that I use, as a strapline for my own website, an expletive. A good designer. And I thought, “Yeah. I mean, that represents me.” But then I thought, “Yeah, I don’t want to be aggressive though.” So I thought, “You know what? A rocking good designer is a good …” Because I’m not doing SEO with my own site. People won’t find me via SEO. It’s not what I do. So I thought, “Rocking good designer.”

And then I thought, “You know what?” Because I used to take photos kind of properly and seriously and I have two very compliant accomplices in my niece and nephew, who are now grown, but when they were kids, we did lots of photo shoots doing all sorts of things. And I had quite a few of them pretending to be rock stars. And they’re really good, very good, fun photos, and sort of ironic because I’m not going to pretend that I am a rockstar. So I’ve done a visual treatment of those photos of my niece and nephew and I’ve used it on my site. You’ve got a rocking good designer and then photos of kids being silly, playing the rockstar.

It’s nothing! It’s nothing at all. But it’s an example of how you can be creative and use a concept and build a site around that concept. It’s just an excuse to say, “I’m a good designer. Come look at my stuff.” So it’s nothing and it’s self-promotion. Sorry, I’ve done it. But it’s a way that you can use it. You can do it for yourself. You can think of that.

And that’s something that, actually, I’ve been missing a lot since building sites because it’s very rare that you come across clients that want that, that use visual concepts, that use branding in that way. It’s usually very, very practical and about making money and about user experience, which is something else that I am a big advocate of and that, in fact, I am a hybrid. When I get my own clients, I always do a bit of both because depending on the size of the project, sometimes it’s perfect.

But as luck would have it, because I have been sort of telling people I need a case study for creative accessibility. And I think that even though it didn’t come from asking, I’ve just got a project now that is perfect for that. Actually, there’s an existing site already which is called, it’s MusicPatron.com. Then that would be completely redesigned. It’s a fantastic concept. It’s already up and running. Anybody can, in fact, you can if you want, join and sponsor a composer. They have a limited number of composers. You pick one and you can sponsor them with 10 pounds a month, if you want.

They just went through a branding process by a London agency, that I knew from my British Film Institute Times, who work with cultural institutions mostly. They’ve done a beautifully, beautifully creative branding for them that just is perfect. It’s joyful. And in fact, the great thing is that it uses animation. Here you go. I’m going to be able to create because now I’m going to put into practice the branding guidelines that this branding agency created. But that’s their interesting bit because they are using animations a lot.

So how do you use animations in a way that is accessible? It is possible. You can do that. But also, how do you use the concept of animation in a way that’s creative and accessible? Again, I know that that’s possible. That’s going to be a wonderful example of how you have a creative concept that runs through a whole site and you use it in a way that is not only imaginative, but also, it leads to conversions because they need to sell memberships. It’s not a Woo site, but it is a membership site. I can’t remember what tech stack they use because I’ve only just started working with them, but it’s going to be a wonderful way of showing that.

I’ve given you one type of example, which is a visual concept. I can’t tell you what the branding is like yet because it hasn’t … I’d have to kill you and that’s not right. It’s not been rolled out officially yet. It’s going to be launched when we launch the site, but you can go check out MusicPatron.com. I think you will get the spirit. Even though they design it themselves, so it’s not designed. I think they did a pretty good job of giving an idea of what they do.

Being creative in a non-visual way

But now I’m going to give you the other example of how you can be creative in a non-visual way. And there are lots of already existing examples, but this is something that I’ve been wanting to do for so long and I’ve got two clients now that I hope they’ll let me do it because other clients, it just hasn’t quite materialized yet. I’ll give you an example.

I’ve recently led the UX for the rebuild of the site for an Italian museum. Now, cultural institutions, such as museums, are really interesting to work with in a very British use of the word. Interesting can mean anything. It can mean awful as well. You know? “It’s sort of an interesting challenge” means, “Oh my God. Why did I put myself into it?”

Anyway, it’s interesting because when you create a website for an institution such as a museum, you can’t go wild with your own design because it’s about the artwork. You have to be subtle. I designed art books and exhibition catalogs for many years so I’m very, very familiar with that challenge. That’s where it becomes beautiful to actually work it with digital and it makes me happy that I can do that, even though books were so much easier. They didn’t move, you didn’t need to update them. It was great.

But what you can do with digital is, let’s say that you need to give directions to people who need to get to the museum because you’re creating a digital space for an actual physical space. Instead of just having a Google map … You can do that if you want. You can just have a Google map. How helpful is that? That’s not necessarily terribly helpful if you have no idea how to get there, if the museum is a little bit out of the way, off the beaten track location. So why not, instead of just having a map, having an interactive tool that actually builds an itinerary with you? I mean, it’s a quiz. You can call it a quiz. And building quizzes used to be a little bit of a challenge with WordPress. Either you would get very expensive tools or you had to have an external tool to do it and so on. But now there are amazing plugins that allow you to build and host quizzes on WordPress sites.

So your quiz could start: how are you planning to get here? A car or public transport? Okay, car. Okay, which side of town? Will you get in from the north, from the west, from the south? If you get in from the south, this is your car park. Careful though because it’s not fully accessible. Something like this. And then in the end, you print it out as a pdf. So, boom. You’ve been incredibly helpful. You’ve given people a good experience before they’ve even got to your museum and you’ve used your tool creatively.

You can go further than that. We’ve not done it yet, but what we’re doing is we’re planning, for instance, itineraries. How many hours do you have in town? How much time do you have in town? Hours? Days or a week? Okay, I have a day. Okay, you have a day. Do you like architectures, culture or painting? Painting, Okay. Start from the museum. How much do you want to walk? You’re given an option of: I want to walk a little, I don’t want to walk at all.

You get the drift. You can create. You can be imaginative and create an experience that’s completely accessible because you can create a quiz accessibly and use an accessible tool for it, and you’ve used your imagination, maybe in a different way than you thought you would. But really, there was no need to animate anything at all and you’ve been creative anyway. I hope that answers the question.

Marcus: Yeah, absolutely. I love the tag, the strapline, like you said earlier, is a rocking good designer. And I think immediately people jump right to just visual and so much of design, like you talk about UX and UI and all of that, is not just the visual part, but just the entire experience of how someone feels being there. Like you talked about there with the tool to create an itinerary, there’s probably a visual aspect to that, but there’s still so much design in there as you’re designing the experience of how people are getting to the museum and what they’re going to want to see and just building that whole thing there for them. I think that’s awesome.

Piccia: Yeah, thank you. We haven’t managed to do it yet, which is often our frustration as designers. We want all these great ideas and the clients get really excited about it and then the reality of actually getting it done is a little bit more complicated. But we’ll get there. You know? We’ll get there with all of it.

Thanks to our Pod Friends Weglot and GoDaddy Pro

Thinking through design accessibility

Marcus: You’ve talked a lot about accessibility without really defining it too much. What sort of things do you think about when you look at accessibility, both in terms of the artwork part of design and the UX part of design? What are the sort of considerations that you think about and that people should think about when they’re thinking through design accessibility?

Piccia: Yes. Another very, very good question.

First of all, I consider myself a learner. I’m still very much, very much learning, but that’s why I want to also talk about it a lot and get people into it because I feel that once you start, you can’t stop. So my first consideration is how to structure your content because accessibility is a wide concept, but basically what you want is for your site to be understood by everybody, regardless of the tool that they use to experience it, which was also Tim Berners-Lee’s idea when he invented the internet, more or less.

So how do you do that? Where do you start from? Well, you start from a correct HTML structure. And the interesting thing is that this is really basic, but because of all the different tools that people use and because not everybody gets an education or gives themselves an education before they start building stuff on the web, it’s really interesting how many sites exist that don’t follow a correct HTML structure at all.

Why is that important? Well, it’s important for SEO, first of all, but also for accessibility because of the way screen readers work. A screen reader will make sense, parse a page when you get onto it, by the hierarchy of texts. So if you use your H1s, H2s and H3s, H4s correctly, then the user of the screen reader will be able to know and decide what they’re interested in on the page. That’s the first thing that you look at.

95% of websites have an issue with color contrast

And then the second thing. One thing that is actually really good about trying to be more accessible is that people think it’s so complicated, but it isn’t. What would you say is the biggest accessibility issue that something like 95% of websites have an issue with? Can you imagine what it is?

Marcus: I would venture to guess maybe difficult navigation.

Piccia: It’s much simpler than that. It’s really basic. I’ll tell you. It’s color contrast. And it’s the easiest thing to sort out as well. Color contrast is another thing. I mean, content structure is fundamental because everything is going to be better for you if you structure your content properly because you’re going to convert more instantly because it’s just easier to understand your site and to navigate it. So yes, you’re right. Difficult navigation, for sure. Inaccessible navigation is an issue. But then the other thing is color contrast.

Even just by getting your color contrast right, which is very easy, anyone can do it. You just use a contrast checker. Contrastchecker.com, that’s it. Really simple. You are already doing more than most sites are doing. It’s a very easy, very, very easy win. But I mentioned screen readers. Another thing is that why is design important? Because when you make certain design decisions and you explain to your client why you’re making design decisions, because you know, you need to educate yourself to know that there are things that should never be used because A, it’s kind of proven they don’t convert, and B, they constitute a huge obstacle to web usage.

The dreaded slider

Can you guess, Marcus, what I’m talking about? The one thing that developers and good designers go, “Oh no!” and that all clients want? The dreaded slider.

Marcus: The slider? Yeah. Carousels. The design by committee element.

Piccia: Oh my God. I always get amazed that we are still there. But can I tell you a real interesting, 100% e-commerce-related story about a slider?

Marcus: Yeah.

Piccia: It was a WP Accessibility Day and I took part with a panel, and it was Anne Bovelett and I, and Lazar who’s a speaking coach and he’s blind from birth, so he’s never seen. He’s been using a screen reader since 2004 to experience the web.

So Anne, she makes a really good case, especially about e-commerce and proving that accessibility will actually get you to make more money in your e-commerce site. And it’s incontrovertible. It’s true. And I like her approach very much. It’s mine as well, the Design for Conversions Conference, because I don’t want to tell people, “You’re going to get fined. You will get sued.” No, let’s be positive. Let’s just say, “Look, if not for any other reason, your site will convert.” I mean, not necessarily just money, but more of this. If you make your site accessible, you are immediately gaining 25% of audience. These are stats and figures that I’m not making up. They exist.

We thought we’d bring a blind user because I don’t think that any of us really can quite imagine how someone else experiences the web. It’s normal. We just don’t. I mean, we can try and practice empathy, which is at the basis of UX, but fundamentally, we just don’t know. I’ve tried. I’ve used screen readers, but I can always open my eyes.

37,000 times their investment with accessibility

And the interesting thing is that Anne has an article on her website, which quotes the case study of Tesco. Now, Tesco is not just online. Their supermarkets in the UK, they’re huge, and they’ve been selling online. They’ve been doing e-commerce for a long time because they don’t just do food; they do lots of other stuff as well. When I lived in London, I used their site constantly since the early 2000s.

And in 2003 I think, something like that, 2002, a good 20 years ago, they did their research, realized that they were locking their self out of a lot of money by not having an accessible site, and spent 35,000 pounds in making their site accessible. And their income, their revenue absolutely skyrocketed almost overnight because they did it before Christmas, which obviously is when people go crazy with it. Very good timing.

Marcus: Yeah, good timing.

Piccia: The figure is something ridiculous. The mind doesn’t compute, but they made 37,000 times their investment over the course of a year. Something like that. Now, it definitely was 37,000, but is just astonishing, incredible. Just by making their site accessible. So the plan was, in the panel for WordPress Accessibility Day, to do a demonstration of Lazar using the Tesco site. We wanted it to be as fresh as possible. So we told him, “Do not register beforehand. Do not do anything. Let’s just go on the site.”

And it was hilarious because we got on the site and actually, we also asked him, “Can you please put this screen reader on so that we know how you experience it?” And he has the screen reader on so fast, the speed at which it talks. I found that after hearing it for a while, I was understanding it, but at the beginning, I was like, “Is this English?” I wasn’t sure what language it was. And he was like, “Yeah, yeah. It’s English. I always use it in English.” Okay.

And the amazing thing was that Tesco has sort of slightly lost the plot a little bit with accessibility because we experienced firsthand why sliders are so rubbish because Lazar got stuck on a slider that’s on the Tesco site and there was no way out for him. We spent like 10, 15 minutes, I can’t remember how long, but quite a long time trying to navigate out of the slider. And he was saying, “I am not fast enough.” I mean, he’s been using a screen reader since 2004, and he was saying, “I am not fast enough to go past this slider. I’m not able to because it’s too fast.” What’s it called? It was automatically changing the slide. And also, how it was designed, it was looping.

And the focus wasn’t done correctly. The focus function. It was difficult for us even to tell where he was. We didn’t know where he was with this mouse. I was telling him there is a pause button, but he couldn’t find it because the focus wasn’t working correctly, wasn’t coded correctly. In the end, he could do it, but we were exhausted by that. He was like, “Yeah, no. I don’t think I would make my Christmas shopping here. I don’t think it’s going to happen anytime soon.” And he said, “Without you guiding me to find the pause button, there is no way I would’ve been able to stop the slider.”

So a couple of people or more in the audience were asking, “What’s the solution then for a client that really want the slider?” We were like, “No slider! I mean, really. That’s the best solution.” But he said, “If you have to have a slider, then have a very easy skip to content link at the beginning so that I don’t have to go through the slider.”

But then another thing that came up, really interesting, in the not-British sense, in the real sense of interesting, by working, doing a panel with Lazar and the meetings that we had before with him and experiencing the web with him is that, for instance, his favorite site, the best e-commerce site that he knows is a site that, for us, is terrible because the contrast is all wrong. The design is terrible. The layout is incomprehensible. And for him, it’s the best site in existence. So it gives you the measure of how wide the spectrum is.

So, is it possible to design for everyone? Yes because obviously, Lazar doesn’t care what it looks like because he can’t see it, but those of us who can see it, we can build the site. It wouldn’t be that difficult to organize that site that Lazar loves, visually, in a way that people who can see can experience it.

But back to sliders because this is We Do the Woo podcast. It’s about e-commerce and I am going to insist on other reasons why. It was so compelling. People were like, “Wow, I had no idea.” Well, now you know. And it’s not just a blind user that experiences that. It’s also Google trying to make sense of the SEO. It won’t know it.

But the other thing is then from the design and UX point of view, which is also my point, that slider, I think it was about four slides, it wasn’t too many, they were too fast to read. But also, they were addressing a widely different audience. They were advertising completely different products. So it was like, okay, who are you talking to? Why are you so insecure? Don’t be so indecisive. That’s another problem with sliders. If you have more than one offer, do one a week, but don’t give me four different options that are so widely different. If I am curious and I go through the slider, I find the second one, maybe the first one is relevant to me, and maybe the second one is for young mothers and it’s not relevant to me at all. So why would you do that? You’ve lost me, essentially. That’s another really compelling UX reason why sliders are rubbish.

And then I’m not blind, but they give me motion sickness. I mean, luckily this one did have a pause button, but while we were sort of doing the demonstration and waiting for Lazar to be able to do it because he was sharing his own screen, I was like, “Oh. I’m really getting motion sickness here.” There’s also that. You’re really shutting yourself in the full … And I’m thinking that I will extract the clip of Lazar fighting with a slider and show it to clients if anybody ever asks for a slider again, which I hope they don’t.

Marcus: Yeah. I think you hit it on the head there at the end is that the customers, the visitors to the site, don’t want a slider. Whether you’re using a screen reader or different assistive input device or anything, or not. Customers aren’t asking for sliders. Sliders exist on websites because clients have 10 things that they want to say all at once and they think that the slider is the best option.

And so, I agree with you. I despise those, whether I can pause them or skip over them, they just don’t serve the purpose that clients think that they serve. I’ve built websites for a decade and had to deal with the same thing and it’s all about what the client wants. When you see a slider, you know we have a committee of people and 10 people need to get their message out in the first five seconds. And it’s confusing, confusing to people that are coming to the site. It just doesn’t serve its purposes.

Design for Conversions

Before we wrap up, you did mention earlier that you have your own conference and I wanted to just have you talk. Design for Conversions, you said it’s coming back in May. If you want to just share briefly what that looks like and how people can find out a little bit more about that.

Piccia: Thank you very much for that because I care a lot about it. The first edition was in 2021 and organizing an online conference is not as easy as you might think, so I took a year out, and I’m doing it again in May this year. Not this year. Next year, 2023.

Marcus: Mm-hmm. It’s coming.

Piccia: So it’s called Design for Conversions because I think it’s a very good title because again, it’s enticing people in and it’s about accessibility and inclusion. That’s really important for me as well because the sort of reason why I decided I wanted to do my own conference was that I would be able to invite whoever I wanted, get more diverse voices telling us about their experience rather than always the same people who look the same. And that’s one of the reasons why I wanted to do it.

And then the accessibility angle has become stronger and stronger because also, one of the days is on the 18th of May is Global Accessibility Awareness Day. And the conference is going to be … I actually can’t remember my own dates, but definitely the 18th of May is the day of the conference?

Marcus: Yeah, 16th to the 18th.

Piccia: Yes. Oh, thank you. Thank you very much for that. It’s important to me and it’s becoming the main focus, but not necessarily just that focus. I have a point, which is good design and good marketing and good UX are fundamentally accessible. When you do things by the book, correctly, you are accessible already, kind of by default. Because guess what? Nobody who does good marketing or good UX ever said, “Use a slider.” You know what I mean? It all coincides. And this time, this year I’m joined also by Anne Bovelett is going to help me organize the conference and Harold Martins, who organizes UX Copenhagen, we’re going to get great speakers.

And the really nice thing about the 2021 conference was that even though it was online, we managed to create a real community experience. I guess that we did it by interacting a lot with the comments. There was a live element. There’s going to be, again, a live element. The talks were all interviews delivered. I would interview the speakers and quite a few of them, actually, came and will come on the day so that the audience can ask questions and in a video. I have since developed the ability to look at the comments without losing my thread.

In fact, I really like it. I feel like answering the comments live, you can do it in an online live event in a way that doesn’t disturb the flow, it enriches it. So in a way, it’s a better experience than a live conference because in the live conference, you deliver the talk and no one can interrupt you as you deliver the talk, and the questions are at the end. Whereas when you talk live with someone, it’s fine. You can do it, you can do it. If you do it correctly, it’s always relevant because people ask relevant questions to the topic in hand at the right time.

Ronald: That’s a really good point. Yeah. We’ll add all the links to all the good work you have done and are doing into the podcast page as well, which is … I think now, after hearing a lot of these, it’ll be quite a good library of resources. Amazing, amazing work you’re doing.

Piccia: Yeah. Thank you.

Ronald: Thank you so much, Piccia, for your time and knowledge sharing. Marcus, a couple of last words? What’s your take from it all?

Marcus: Yeah, I’m looking forward to the accessibility, you conference in May, and just continuing the conversation about accessibility and inclusion. Really appreciate you coming on.

Piccia: Thank you very much for having me. Thank you.